AG bucks VS Browse bucks

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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby <DK> » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 pm

Good bump. What a excellent topic!


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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby <DK> » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:26 pm

BKMississippi wrote:I'm farrrrr from an expert, but I've read that regions with Mollisols or Alfisols soils are primed to grow big animals. With that said, those fertile soils are also great for crops so over time a lot of these lands have been converted to ag farms. I'm not saying soybeans don't help deer grow, I just think that in those fertile areas where there are large ag operations, the browse are super beneficial too.

Edited to say that I just realized how old this thread is. Sorry for the old bump. Interesting topic though.


Great post BKM! I recently read a older QDMA article about buck score averages and your comment specifically. In fact, that is what the Penn state people are invovled with. They study the forest and soil before making deer regualtion changes. Its a fun read - https://www.qdma.com/antler-growth-bell-curve/

At the bottom of the article was a few graphs. Figured id post them here for easy visuals. Curious others thoughts on this... :think:
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby P&YBuck1 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:19 am

A lot of good perspectives as they all are very valid.

Uncle Lou stated Genetics, food and age which I personally agree.

Just like a dog or any animal they first grow their frames first, next they fill it in and finally rest goes to rack growth. I feel that good nutrition can increase antler growth since the young buck grows his frame and fills it in faster then a buck with poor nutrition, so next growth goes to rack for a ag deer. Stress by predators, winter, etc. all impact growth as deer need to rebound from this stress before their bodies give back to rack growth. I know ag areas do get cleaned out, but I think with all the fertilizers etc. the ag crop might be gone but the natural browse, bushes, grasses, etc. which skirt these plowed fields are rich in nutrition so assist bucks rack growth even though the field was plowed.

Just my two cents worth.

Great perspectives by all.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby headgear » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:16 am

With normal weather the browse deer will catch up when they hit 4 or 5 and produce some nice to amazing racks. They might not hit their full potential but they are plenty big enough to make any hunter happy. There will also be genetic outliers both good and bad in all areas, seems like the more I hunt the more diversity I see. Just in our small area there have been some huge 160-170 deer shot but not too often, some tiny racked big bodied deer, a few with drop tines, some symmetrical, and some with all kinds of junk, narrow racks, wide racks you name it. I just think it is nature doing its thing and producing all kinds of antlers.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Bigburner » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:01 am

Soil builds big bucks. It all starts there with what the vegetation they are eating extracts from the soil. I think genetics can play some role but that's so hard to determine. the biggest bucks at least rack wise come from areas with the richest soils IA, IL, WI, OH etc. Where after they finish initially building their skeletal structure in there first 3.5 years they have those excess nutrients and minerals they can finally put into antler development later in life. And its better in those places no doubt.
Where I live on Delmarva. we are a huge farming base in the southern part of the state. Lots of corn and soybeans and we can grow them really big but a deer's diet is about 80% browse and the quality of the native browse in the Midwest is better. We have sandy soils and that limits plant nutrients greatly. If it wasn't for the ag. production and farmers pumping tons of fertilizer into the system I don't think it would be as good as it is. Its not that rich dark glacial sediment based soils you get in the Midwest. head to an area where they are strictly browse and I mean places where they don't even have acorns like the Adirondacks of New York. Big bodies b/c of the Northern climate but a 100" buck in a place like that in that cold climate with a short growing season is a nice deer. Not the greatest for rack development. Rocky sandy soils as well from glacial till. Those things are eating cedar bark when things are harsh just to keep their stomachs full.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby elk yinzer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:21 am

If you skip over my too-long post, these maps say just about everything:

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Notice any correlation there?

Genetics and nutrients are two separate factors. It’s all about soil fertility on a broad geographic/population scale, then genetics when you look at variations between individual deer in a given population.

I have hunted three geologic regions of PA, and I have personally seen the vast difference even within our own state. Then even compare that to the Midwest where some deer make PY at 2.5 and a decent percentage of genetically gifted deer eventually make B&C, it’s apples to oranges.

On one end up the spectrum, I grew up hunting Western PA, with fertile glacial soil and lots of agriculture. Yearlings are generally forks, spikes are rare, and some yearlings are even basket 8’s. I would say the majority of 3 year olds are right around P&Y. Most bucks that make it to maturity 4+ are going to be well into P&Y, and the genetically gifted get into the 150’s and above. The problem is that on your average public, or small private 40 acres, 90% of the bucks are killed the first or second year they have a legal rack. The soil is fertile, essentially the same as SE Ohio which is a known big buck mecca, there is just so much hunting pressure very few bucks grow old. I stand by that it’s probably the most hunting pressure anywhere in the world.

Now, I hunt mostly Central PA which has two different geographies and more varying soils. I hunt the both the Appalachian Ridges and the Allegheny Plateau, which are completely different geographies and soils. Relative to home, deer don’t get quite as large in either, but many more reach maturity. Compared to one another, bucks absolutely grow larger in the plateau than in the ridges, again, more fertile soil. The plateau bucks, they get a little more soil nutrients and tend to run in between the ridge bucks and the bigger bucks of Western PA.

In the ridges it’s not uncommon to see fully mature deer that barely make 100”. Virtually all yearlings are spindly spikes, and even a lot of two year olds are still forkhorns. There are a lot of mature bucks that top out in that 100-110 range at best. In antler size they are more comparable to Coues’ deer than an Iowa or SE WI whitetail. The weird thing about the ridges too, there are broad fertile limestone valleys, and deer that have access to those valleys indeed grow bigger. But I take pleasure in chasing the big woods bucks that live deep in the mountains, even with their smaller racks. To me chasing mature deer is the pleasure and the mountains provide a setting that I feel is truer to the type of hunting I enjoy than hunting in agricultural settings. It’s really opened my eyes to the relativity of trophy pictures that I see.

As far as that, the whipping them out and measuring them, as guys tend to do, and the internet provides a platform for...We compare ourselves to others, it's human nature. By comparison to guys in the Midwest, guys around here, myself included, shoot a lot of "little bucks"....I think the 2 and 3 year olds bare that out... where I see big differences geographically. A 4+ year old buck looks respectable no matter where you kill it. I see some of these kill zone photos from KS, MO, IA, WI, MN, etc… clearly 2, 3 year old deer measuring 100-130”+...decent, nice, but young bucks they just don't have that fully grown up look yet, when you look beyond just the antlers. Bucks that size are often fully mature deer here, I think a lot of midwesterners don't really realize that, and likewise I think it's hard for some people here to comprehend not everywhere is capable of growing giant bucks.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby BKMississippi » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:32 am

Thanks for posting those photos, elk.

I agree there's an obvious correlation between the two photos. IMO there are two things keeping the maps from lining up even better. One would be deer densities. Take places that have great soils and great food, but it's so open deer don't have the needed cover, which can keep deer densities down. The second thing would be distances from populated areas. More populated areas will have more big deer killed as well. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but imo when you have lots of hunters going after b&c and p&y deer, you're going have some of those hunters harvesting them. On the other hand, if you take one of the low populated areas of North or South Dakota, you're liable to have giants walking around that no one ever hunts. I bet somewhere in the white counties of the Dakotas there's a booner walking around.

With all of that said, a landowner in the piney woods of my area could fertilize the browse, plant winter and summer plots, and pump protein all year long, and the landowner could grow big racks in a few years. Especially in comparison to the adjacent landowners. However, in the end give me a large thicket in a Midwest or breadbasket state with all day.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Bedbug » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:33 am

moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


This is spot on. Largest factor is subsoil pH balance and mineral content both grown into natural browse/crops and direct intake by the deer. The genetics are a result of evolution to their surrounding soil content.
During peak antler growth 75-90% of a deers intake consist of water. At that time the less quality minerals that are available the less amino acids can be absorbed through stomachs and intestinal walls.
The fawns intake from it's mother is actually the most important part of there potential to grow large antlers. In the womb to about 6 months of age. The earlier good bone development takes place the better.
The skeletal system takes priority over the available amino acids. what's left over goes to antler growth.
This is easily seen in young bucks in different areas BUT once the bucks are mature and done growing their skeletal system the nutrients start going directly to antler growth.
In areas of very poor soul quality like big woods there's just not enough minerals available to convert plant matter into proteins that supply big antler growth no matter what there food source is. They've evolved to adapt to that.
Sorry for the long post
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Dloat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:28 am

Mississippi state university's deer lab did a study on this and they concluded the biggest factor was the grandmothers nutrition. The podcast is on their feed.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby moog5050 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:56 am

Bedbug wrote:
moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


This is spot on. Largest factor is subsoil pH balance and mineral content both grown into natural browse/crops and direct intake by the deer. The genetics are a result of evolution to their surrounding soil content.
During peak antler growth 75-90% of a deers intake consist of water. At that time the less quality minerals that are available the less amino acids can be absorbed through stomachs and intestinal walls.
The fawns intake from it's mother is actually the most important part of there potential to grow large antlers. In the womb to about 6 months of age. The earlier good bone development takes place the better.
The skeletal system takes priority over the available amino acids. what's left over goes to antler growth.
This is easily seen in young bucks in different areas BUT once the bucks are mature and done growing their skeletal system the nutrients start going directly to antler growth.
In areas of very poor soul quality like big woods there's just not enough minerals available to convert plant matter into proteins that supply big antler growth no matter what there food source is. They've evolved to adapt to that.
Sorry for the long post


Thanks for the detailed explanation
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Twenty Up » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:15 am

I run a lot of cameras in suburban areas and wooded/farm areas as well. The body size for the suburban deer is almost always smaller than the other two areas. There's always the exception suburban bucks being fed by neighbors but it all boils down to genetics & available browse.

Look at the guys feeding protein feed/calf starter or any type of supplemental feed. Their deer are always much larger and healthier than all three (in GA at least)....

Quality food + genetics = world class bucks (weight & rack size) that's why major river areas seem to hold larger deer along with pockets in certain counties or cities. Better soil equates to higher quality browse.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby <DK> » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:05 am

Bedbug wrote:
moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


This is spot on. Largest factor is subsoil pH balance and mineral content both grown into natural browse/crops and direct intake by the deer. The genetics are a result of evolution to their surrounding soil content.
During peak antler growth 75-90% of a deers intake consist of water. At that time the less quality minerals that are available the less amino acids can be absorbed through stomachs and intestinal walls.
The fawns intake from it's mother is actually the most important part of there potential to grow large antlers. In the womb to about 6 months of age. The earlier good bone development takes place the better.
The skeletal system takes priority over the available amino acids. what's left over goes to antler growth.
This is easily seen in young bucks in different areas BUT once the bucks are mature and done growing their skeletal system the nutrients start going directly to antler growth.
In areas of very poor soul quality like big woods there's just not enough minerals available to convert plant matter into proteins that supply big antler growth no matter what there food source is. They've evolved to adapt to that.
Sorry for the long post


Are acorns acidic too?
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Bedbug » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:25 pm

Darkknight54 wrote:
Bedbug wrote:
moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


This is spot on. Largest factor is subsoil pH balance and mineral content both grown into natural browse/crops and direct intake by the deer. The genetics are a result of evolution to their surrounding soil content.
During peak antler growth 75-90% of a deers intake consist of water. At that time the less quality minerals that are available the less amino acids can be absorbed through stomachs and intestinal walls.
The fawns intake from it's mother is actually the most important part of there potential to grow large antlers. In the womb to about 6 months of age. The earlier good bone development takes place the better.
The skeletal system takes priority over the available amino acids. what's left over goes to antler growth.
This is easily seen in young bucks in different areas BUT once the bucks are mature and done growing their skeletal system the nutrients start going directly to antler growth.
In areas of very poor soul quality like big woods there's just not enough minerals available to convert plant matter into proteins that supply big antler growth no matter what there food source is. They've evolved to adapt to that.
Sorry for the long post


Are acorns acidic too?


I think I misled you I'm sorry. (I was trying to shorten my post). When i said acids I was referring to amino acids. A vague term by itself but the building blocks of proteins. The third on the list for what the whitetails target as a food source, but the most important for antler growth.

Acorns are pretty unique they're not a source of protein to deer but still can contribute to potential antler growth. Acorns contain important minerals such as calcium, phosphorus and potassium, and even the vitamin niacin.
Oaks have the ability to take these valuable minerals out of even the poorest soil. The reason Acorns appear to be ice cream to deer is based on the fat and calorie content; same as corn.
They're 70% carbohydrates. There is, however, a slight downside because acorns contain tannins that make them bitter. So as good as acorns are nutritionally, deer will select acorn species that contain fewer tannins. Red and burr oak acorns, for example, are very bitter while the acorns of white oaks (being much lower in tannins) are more mild in flavor. We probably all know this but should always be kept in mind when deciding locations and sets in new locations. Especially mid October through early Nov.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Bedbug » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:51 am

timberwolf311 wrote:As late as oaks drop are they a good source for rut and winter bulk more so than an antler growth supplement?


Yeah 70% carbs
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby headgear » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:13 am

Bedbug wrote:
This is spot on. Largest factor is subsoil pH balance and mineral content both grown into natural browse/crops and direct intake by the deer. The genetics are a result of evolution to their surrounding soil content.

In areas of very poor soul quality like big woods there's just not enough minerals available to convert plant matter into proteins that supply big antler growth no matter what there food source is. They've evolved to adapt to that.
Sorry for the long post


I guess I don't really see it this way, are you trying to say that the genetics adapt to the soil in the areas they live? Can you explain more on this? I'm not saying they aren't adaptable to their surroundings, I just see vastly different genetics in the same area with the same soil content, that seems to hold true of all areas. We have talked about before how on Bill Winke's farm he grows 200 inches and 130 inch 5 year old bucks, same farm, same area, same soil. The only difference is the genetics, not the soil. I guess I don't see bigwoods deer and farmland deer with vastly different genetics, especially if you compare NW MN deer to NE MN deer, no doubt they are adaptable but one just has access to better food at a younger age. The bigwoods has alwasy and continues to produce some huge deer, I hunt near the canadian border in NE MN and while these huge antlered bucks are rare I know of plenty of huge bucks & booners shot over the years even with the so called poor soil, the way you are wording it is these deer don't get that big when many of them do.

What I often see is deer catch up and still grow huge racks once they hit an older age class, they probably give up some inches to their better fed farmland bucks but you would really need a cloned deer living in these areas to see how they turned out to know for sure. There are also those deer that just have "IT" when it comes to genetics, bigwoods 1.5 year old 8 pointers are rare but I do see them from time to time. Same goes for big racked 2 and 3 year olds in the bigwoods, rare again but they are out there. Generally speaking the better deer numbers you have you start to see more of this genetic diversity. There is no denying the food can make a big difference but if it was the key to everything we wouldn't see these huge deer in the bigwoods.


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