AG bucks VS Browse bucks

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kurt
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby kurt » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:03 am

dan wrote:I think it has more to do with genetics than diet... Diet has some impact, but not as much as people think. As a matter of fact, corn is a horrible food for deer by itself. Deer need browse, and eat browse more than crops even in big farm areas.

I agree. I would say in Wis the harsher winter in some areas give them a slower start with recovery and coupled with the stress of wolves. Effect more of rack size then food. As far as food Alfalfa and some other crops are much better for deer then Corn.

I remember when the wolf population was lower maybe 12 years or so ago lots of nice bucks coming back gun season. Seeing them at gas stations being registered and on trucks.

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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby moog5050 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:45 am

In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby headgear » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:20 am

dan wrote:I think it has more to do with genetics than diet... Diet has some impact, but not as much as people think. As a matter of fact, corn is a horrible food for deer by itself. Deer need browse, and eat browse more than crops even in big farm areas.


I am a pretty firm believer in genetics as well, I see plenty of huge racked bucks come out of bigwoods areas. Of course that is over many years so they are still considered rare but they are out there. Same goes for the big buck states, plenty of those old bucks will "average" racks running around. I think we have discussed before how Bill Winke's farm producing both 200 inches and some fully mature "scrub" 120's and 130's deer. All of these different areas producing huge racks and not so huge racks have a perfectly level playing field so genetics is the only real explanation I can come up with.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby JoeRE » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:52 am

Corn is only one of many ag food sources. Soybeans are great for deer and their growth times perfectly with a buck's antler growth. Ag land in general just greatly decreases the amount of work it takes for a deer to survive most winters in the midwest.

This is probably going to degenerate into the old genetics versus nutrition debate, but I would direct everyone to a perfect example of what typical ag food sources can do. Dr. Grant Woods has turned his property down in the Ozarks into a deer paradise - only through nutrition and habitat improvement. If I remember correctly before he said before he bought the land, which is all bigwoods, [glow=red]not a single pope and young deer was registered to the entire county[/glow]. That's amazing considering what they shoot every year there now. Every deer has a certain Genetic potential but nutrition is the hatchet that trims inches off antlers most of the time. Its not just a genetic coincidence that the fertile land of the midwest grows most of the big bucks in the country.

Obviously Dr. Woods isn't harvesting anything but the deer themselves ( his website is called GROWING DEER for a reason :lol: ) but the food he provides is similar to what is available anywhere in the commercially farmed midwest. There is less waste grain and hay cured on the stem in the winter to eat on purely commercial ag land, IE no food plots, but its easier to get than what a big woods buck has to scrounge for.

So yea I have noticed a pretty big difference in antler size and body size between bucks I have seen in north central WI and down in eastern Iowa. I would say the average 2 and 3 year olds here have 10-15" bigger antlers and 10-20 pounds heavier. You go a lot further north, the bucks get bigger but I think that is getting into a completely different subspecies of whitetail.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby JoeRE » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:02 am

Also, I do think its not so much about what is grown on the land, but how rich the soil is itself.

Look for good rich soil on top of limestone and you will find the most big antlered bucks...as long as the herd is well managed. Sometimes that can still be big woods. You are what you eat - and everything comes from dirt.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby stash59 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:46 am

JoeRE wrote:Also, I do think its not so much about what is grown on the land, but how rich the soil is itself.

Look for good rich soil on top of limestone and you will find the most big antlered bucks...as long as the herd is well managed. Sometimes that can still be big woods. You are what you eat - and everything comes from dirt.


Just what I was going to mention.

Also alot of the bigwoods being left these days is because the soil is too poor or too wet for cost effective farming. Or the growing season is too short for crops.

The other thing is because of less timber cutting. Most wild fires being put out early. There is far less browse available in these bigwoods areas. Than in years past. Because of an excess of mature timber.

Going through the B&C records of Wisconsin shows plenty of Booners from the turn of the century until the 50's or 60's. With the big difference from now being much more logging back then!!!!
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby SamPotter » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:59 am

moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


The area of the fingerlakes that I used to live had ideal natural soil pH. Where I now live in Iowa that is not the case, but the bucks are definitely bigger...

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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Southern Man » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:00 am

JoeRE wrote:Corn is only one of many ag food sources. Soybeans are great for deer and their growth times perfectly with a buck's antler growth. Ag land in general just greatly decreases the amount of work it takes for a deer to survive most winters in the midwest.



So yea I have noticed a pretty big difference in antler size and body size between bucks I have seen in north central WI and down in eastern Iowa. I would say the average 2 and 3 year olds here have 10-15" bigger antlers and 10-20 pounds heavier. You go a lot further north, the bucks get bigger but I think that is getting into a completely different subspecies of whitetail.


A couple good comments I think.

What seems odd to me, in my little corner of the world, is the 1 - 3 year old bucks of the big woods public land (virtually no crops, mature timber) are quite a bit smaller in body size and antlers when compared to the bucks in the farm country I live. But when you look at the 4 year olds & up, the antler size is comparable to the farm country bucks, maybe a little behind but not much. Body weights still lag behind. It's almost like the younger guys have to catch up over the first few years.

The biggest difference is the deer numbers. Our Farm country produces a tremendous amount of deer while the big woods does not.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby dan » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:12 am

Stress can be harder in bigwoods if its mature forest without proper logging, but the same can be said in farming areas where they plow after harvest or have really good equipment that gets everything. Wasn't the Jorden buck (world record for a long, long time) a big woods buck?
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Southern Man » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:33 am

Yea I agree. I don't mean to blame it all on available foods.

I've also wondered if one of the difference between the LBL public land bucks and the farm country bucks around here is as a buck ages his metabolism slows not requiring as much food as the younger fellows running around. Will that compensate for the lesser amount of available food? Allowing weight gain, somewhat better health and bigger horns? It seems that's the way it works for us guys. That's why I'm gaining weight :mrgreen: Except my horns aren't getting any bigger :lol:
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby headgear » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:34 am

JoeRE wrote:This is probably going to degenerate into the old genetics versus nutrition debate, but I would direct everyone to a perfect example of what typical ag food sources can do. Dr. Grant Woods has turned his property down in the Ozarks into a deer paradise - only through nutrition and habitat improvement. If I remember correctly before he said before he bought the land, which is all bigwoods, [glow=red]not a single pope and young deer was registered to the entire county[/glow]. That's amazing considering what they shoot every year there now. Every deer has a certain Genetic potential but nutrition is the hatchet that trims inches off antlers most of the time. Its not just a genetic coincidence that the fertile land of the midwest grows most of the big bucks in the country.


Can't argue with any of that Joe, no doubt nutrition can boost or help a buck reach its genetic potential. I just lean heavy on genetics because all things being equal they will be the deciding factor way up on the sticks where I hunt. A lot depends on our location and perspective. Oh and $$$, it could cost a small fortune to buy the land and equipment to be able to pull off what Woods is doing. Not really realistic for the average public land hunter.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby dan » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:37 am

Southern Man wrote:Yea I agree. I don't mean to blame it all on available foods.

I've also wondered if one of the difference between the LBL public land bucks and the farm country bucks around here is as a buck ages his metabolism slows not requiring as much food as the younger fellows running around. Will that compensate for the lesser amount of available food? Allowing weight gain, somewhat better health and bigger horns? It seems that's the way it works for us guys. That's why I'm gaining weight :mrgreen: Except my horns aren't getting any bigger :lol:

One of the biggest issues with deer in the LBL from my limited experience is there is not much logging and mature forests have little to offer in year round food.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby moog5050 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:37 am

SamPotter wrote:
moog5050 wrote:In addition to genetics, I always heard that it was the mineral content of the soil that had the biggest impact. One of the reason why the deer in our area of the NE are generally not near as big racked as those in the Midwest. I have no idea, just what I heard.


The area of the fingerlakes that I used to live had ideal natural soil pH. Where I now live in Iowa that is not the case, but the bucks are definitely bigger...

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I don't doubt that Sam. Isn't it a different subspecies of whitetail out there too? Perhaps that makes a difference or falls into the category of genetics.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:24 am

Complex topic, but interesting and fun. I learned a long time ago that a buck needs 3 main things to grow a big rack; 1)genetics, 2) food, and 3) age.

So why doesn't every buck in the same age, with similar nutrition, and similar genetics grow a similar rack. Well it basically boils down to interspeciedifferentiation (I do love that word). Basically that means little billy's twin brother bobby, eats similar, has the same genetics, and are essentially the same age, but bobby is much bigger than little billy. Yep, we are all different, so are they.

There are a lot of exceptions to the rule, a lot of reversion to the statistical mean, and lot of little things that can end up making a big difference.
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Re: AG bucks VS Browse bucks

Unread postby BKMississippi » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:13 pm

I'm farrrrr from an expert, but I've read that regions with Mollisols or Alfisols soils are primed to grow big animals. With that said, those fertile soils are also great for crops so over time a lot of these lands have been converted to ag farms. I'm not saying soybeans don't help deer grow, I just think that in those fertile areas where there are large ag operations, the browse are super beneficial too.

Edited to say that I just realized how old this thread is. Sorry for the old bump. Interesting topic though.


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