Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

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Mathewshooter
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:39 am

dan wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
dan wrote:About the time you started using scent control, is probably about the time you got serious about hunting big deer. Less mistakes = less getting busted. Even if it did make a difference, it would not be my cup of tea. It takes away the whole thing that makes hunting deer a challenge. They are coming real close with Ozonics and such, and personally, I hope they never make hunting deer as easy as putting on a magic suit. It would take the fun out of it and make accomplishments not so big a deal.


You're exactly right about less mistakes=less getting busted. The less mistakes I was making were scent related. I consider the deer I've shot to be just as much an accomplishment as anyone elses....especially where I've shot them. For anyone to say that deer shot using scent control arent as much of an accomplishment is just not on point. That would be like saying deer shot playing the wind arent that much of an accomplishment because the deer was at a disadvantage. Thats the whole point....giving yourself the advantage over the deer. The suit isnt magic but every bit helps. To each their own.

If you could remove all your scent, yes, it would be less of an accomplisment than not removing all your scent... If they legalized shooting deer with machine guns out of an helicoptor would it not be easier than hunting from a treestand?

I can tell you for fact, that if I could become completely scent free like John claims to be I could walk up to bedded big bucks and shoot them in there beds on a very regular basis. I can move quiet, I know where there looking, and if scent was not an option, just shoot em where they lay... If you think being able to set up, and hunt up wind of deer is not an advantage, your mistaken, and it makes me wonder why you would do it if it don't benafit you? It would be like me saying the deer I shoot with my compound is as much an accomplishment as the ones guys shoot with recurves... Or that my rifle kills are just as much an accomplishment.

Think what you want, but I believe removing scent from the equation would make hunting to easy. I personally like the challenge.


For the record, I dont think anyone can be totally scent free like John claims. I think hunting up high has a lot to do with it too. I do believe that you can REDUCE your scent to the point where it lets you get away with some mistakes you wouldnt have gotten away with before. Now, if you're hunting an area thats miles of wilderness and deer never smell humans it may not help you at all. Those deer probably get out of dodge at the faintest hint of human odor but the public land I hunt is loaded with hunters, hikers, horseback riders and mountain bikers so deer are used to smelling humans. I think they know how close they are by how strong that odor is and whether or not its in the danger zone. And I never said I set up and hunt upwind of the deer on purpose. I still try to play the wind but it swirls a lot around here and the deer can come from any direction in most of my spots so relying soley on the wind is futile at best. Like I said...to each his own. I'm not gonna sit here and say my way is the only way or your way is wrong. I'm just giving my experiences so guys can decide for themselves if its for them.


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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby kurt » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:42 am

I have a bunch of Johns books and videos. Not bad really. I listened to him on Podcasts, not just these. It's very tough. Especially When it comes to scent lok/scent control. It seems like he is trying so hard to defend it, like no one believes him. Not like hey this is how I do it and it's been working for me 18 years. Yeah maybe I get busted but it sure seems like I don't. The way he comes across however is very off putting to me. I don't know maybe it's the tone of his voice. But it sure seems like he is selling out or is so incredibly stubborn he won't ever go back on his original statement. With his books and other stuff it sure seems like he has done enough things that are meant to make at least some money in the Industry. What upsets me is this is probably bad information for anyone getting into hunting. Hunting 30-35 feet and forgetting the wind seems like a bad tactic to teach anyone getting started or learning.

I know alot of successful hunters. Some aren't meant to mentor anybody. I'm starting to put John in that category. I also know a few story tellers that are hunters. After a few years of twisting a story they believe it themselves. Even if I was there to and don't quite remember original hunt like that.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby dan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:15 am

Mathewshooter wrote:
dan wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
dan wrote:About the time you started using scent control, is probably about the time you got serious about hunting big deer. Less mistakes = less getting busted. Even if it did make a difference, it would not be my cup of tea. It takes away the whole thing that makes hunting deer a challenge. They are coming real close with Ozonics and such, and personally, I hope they never make hunting deer as easy as putting on a magic suit. It would take the fun out of it and make accomplishments not so big a deal.


You're exactly right about less mistakes=less getting busted. The less mistakes I was making were scent related. I consider the deer I've shot to be just as much an accomplishment as anyone elses....especially where I've shot them. For anyone to say that deer shot using scent control arent as much of an accomplishment is just not on point. That would be like saying deer shot playing the wind arent that much of an accomplishment because the deer was at a disadvantage. Thats the whole point....giving yourself the advantage over the deer. The suit isnt magic but every bit helps. To each their own.

If you could remove all your scent, yes, it would be less of an accomplisment than not removing all your scent... If they legalized shooting deer with machine guns out of an helicoptor would it not be easier than hunting from a treestand?

I can tell you for fact, that if I could become completely scent free like John claims to be I could walk up to bedded big bucks and shoot them in there beds on a very regular basis. I can move quiet, I know where there looking, and if scent was not an option, just shoot em where they lay... If you think being able to set up, and hunt up wind of deer is not an advantage, your mistaken, and it makes me wonder why you would do it if it don't benafit you? It would be like me saying the deer I shoot with my compound is as much an accomplishment as the ones guys shoot with recurves... Or that my rifle kills are just as much an accomplishment.

Think what you want, but I believe removing scent from the equation would make hunting to easy. I personally like the challenge.


For the record, I dont think anyone can be totally scent free like John claims. I think hunting up high has a lot to do with it too. I do believe that you can REDUCE your scent to the point where it lets you get away with some mistakes you wouldnt have gotten away with before. Now, if you're hunting an area thats miles of wilderness and deer never smell humans it may not help you at all. Those deer probably get out of dodge at the faintest hint of human odor but the public land I hunt is loaded with hunters, hikers, horseback riders and mountain bikers so deer are used to smelling humans. I think they know how close they are by how strong that odor is and whether or not its in the danger zone. And I never said I set up and hunt upwind of the deer on purpose. I still try to play the wind but it swirls a lot around here and the deer can come from any direction in most of my spots so relying soley on the wind is futile at best. Like I said...to each his own. I'm not gonna sit here and say my way is the only way or your way is wrong. I'm just giving my experiences so guys can decide for themselves if its for them.

Fair enough. That sounds a lot more believable than what John claims... I just personally believe thru observation, looking at tests and such, that deer know exactly where you are when they smell you regardless of less vs more scent. So we are on the same page, other than that. I have noticed though, that just like the test results, I get busted a lot more when I am clean and fresh showered, than when I An sweaty and not clean. I would like to see more testing. But, considering how many tests have been done with the same results, I don't think anything they proved thru testing would change some peoples minds... They could change mine, I am open minded about it. Ozonics comes so close that its scary... I sure hope they never get it right in my lifetime.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:09 pm

dan wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
dan wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
dan wrote:About the time you started using scent control, is probably about the time you got serious about hunting big deer. Less mistakes = less getting busted. Even if it did make a difference, it would not be my cup of tea. It takes away the whole thing that makes hunting deer a challenge. They are coming real close with Ozonics and such, and personally, I hope they never make hunting deer as easy as putting on a magic suit. It would take the fun out of it and make accomplishments not so big a deal.


You're exactly right about less mistakes=less getting busted. The less mistakes I was making were scent related. I consider the deer I've shot to be just as much an accomplishment as anyone elses....especially where I've shot them. For anyone to say that deer shot using scent control arent as much of an accomplishment is just not on point. That would be like saying deer shot playing the wind arent that much of an accomplishment because the deer was at a disadvantage. Thats the whole point....giving yourself the advantage over the deer. The suit isnt magic but every bit helps. To each their own.

If you could remove all your scent, yes, it would be less of an accomplisment than not removing all your scent... If they legalized shooting deer with machine guns out of an helicoptor would it not be easier than hunting from a treestand?

I can tell you for fact, that if I could become completely scent free like John claims to be I could walk up to bedded big bucks and shoot them in there beds on a very regular basis. I can move quiet, I know where there looking, and if scent was not an option, just shoot em where they lay... If you think being able to set up, and hunt up wind of deer is not an advantage, your mistaken, and it makes me wonder why you would do it if it don't benafit you? It would be like me saying the deer I shoot with my compound is as much an accomplishment as the ones guys shoot with recurves... Or that my rifle kills are just as much an accomplishment.

Think what you want, but I believe removing scent from the equation would make hunting to easy. I personally like the challenge.


For the record, I dont think anyone can be totally scent free like John claims. I think hunting up high has a lot to do with it too. I do believe that you can REDUCE your scent to the point where it lets you get away with some mistakes you wouldnt have gotten away with before. Now, if you're hunting an area thats miles of wilderness and deer never smell humans it may not help you at all. Those deer probably get out of dodge at the faintest hint of human odor but the public land I hunt is loaded with hunters, hikers, horseback riders and mountain bikers so deer are used to smelling humans. I think they know how close they are by how strong that odor is and whether or not its in the danger zone. And I never said I set up and hunt upwind of the deer on purpose. I still try to play the wind but it swirls a lot around here and the deer can come from any direction in most of my spots so relying soley on the wind is futile at best. Like I said...to each his own. I'm not gonna sit here and say my way is the only way or your way is wrong. I'm just giving my experiences so guys can decide for themselves if its for them.

Fair enough. That sounds a lot more believable than what John claims... I just personally believe thru observation, looking at tests and such, that deer know exactly where you are when they smell you regardless of less vs more scent. So we are on the same page, other than that. I have noticed though, that just like the test results, I get busted a lot more when I am clean and fresh showered, than when I An sweaty and not clean. I would like to see more testing. But, considering how many tests have been done with the same results, I don't think anything they proved thru testing would change some peoples minds... They could change mine, I am open minded about it. Ozonics comes so close that its scary... I sure hope they never get it right in my lifetime.


I hear ya...I just dont put much stock into tests. For every test out there, you can darn near find one that contradicts the other. I like to try stuff out for myself and see what works. As for the Ozonics thing....I'm not sure how I feel about that.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:22 pm

SamPotter wrote:
dan wrote:About the time you started using scent control, is probably about the time you got serious about hunting big deer. Less mistakes = less getting busted. Even if it did make a difference, it would not be my cup of tea. It takes away the whole thing that makes hunting deer a challenge. They are coming real close with Ozonics and such, and personally, I hope they never make hunting deer as easy as putting on a magic suit. It would take the fun out of it and make accomplishments not so big a deal.


This is fair. It's impossible to rule out variables in a hunting situation that can't be attributed to whether a deer actually smelled you or not.

At the end of the day, all of our observations are anecdotal and certainly have no scientific significance, and a lot of times we see the result we want to see. Even the "scientific studies" referred to in the podcast have to be taken with a grain of salt. I spent 2 years at the Michigan State dairy farm as a student employee and another 10 years on a dairy farm in NY that performed privately funded feed additive research. There were two things I learned very quickly; even under the premise of doing scientific research, mistakes are made by the people conducting the experiment, and when the research is all said and done, if the results are not what the entity that commissioned the research wanted, there's no law that says the results have to be published. It just gets swept under the rug and they repeat a study several times until they are convinced their hypothesis was wrong or they get the results they want.

Even with his arrogance, it is hard to deny that John Eberhart is the OG of killing mature bucks on public land, especially when you take into account where he has been doing it. He is either the biggest sellout ever or his extreme scent control routine actually works for him. Taking it that far is too much of a PITA for my taste, but I'm not going to say it won't work because I've never done it and I have $10 that says there's nobody commenting on this thread that has either. You show me your "head cover with drop down face mask" and I'll shake your hand and put $10 in it.


You wouldnt believe the crap I do :lol:
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Strenke629 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:35 pm

I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby dan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:44 pm

Strenke629 wrote:I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:

He purposefully made his terms ridicules to prevent that...
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby dan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:46 pm

Code: Select all

I hear ya...I just dont put much stock into tests. [glow=red]For every test out there, you can darn near find one that contradicts the other.[/glow] I like to try stuff out for myself and see what works. As for the Ozonics thing....I'm not sure how I feel about that.


I can't remember ever seeing a test done independently ( not a scent control company) that did not have the same results. Thats pretty convincing to me. If you have seen something different, I would like to see it.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Swamp_donkey » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:55 pm

I doubt we can ever have an effective test that will put this issue to bed. The biggest reason I use the system I use for "scent control" (showering, unscented soap for all my laundry, carbon clothes, even one of those scent seal suits at times) is it give me confidence when hunting. I think that is likely it's biggest advantage. I think at this point I would be reluctant to buy more carbon clothing but I've had it for years now so I wear it. There are lots of guys that have insane regimens they fallow to avoid smelling like humans involving diet change and every product under the sun. That's a bit much for my tastes. I did have my buck this year walk for hundreds of yards down the trail I walked in one, made a rub underneath my tree and I shot him as he was j hooking into his bed on a ridge behind me at 7 yds. He seemed clueless to me. It was my 3rd hunt in that tree in that week. Mind you it was raining or snowing each hunt in there and I likely had good thermal action when I shot him. Do what makes you confident.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Strenke629 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:29 am

dan wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:

He purposefully made his terms ridicules to prevent that...


Lol. Yeah I think in his podcast he said the only way he’d do a test is if he had a helicopter drop him down with a rope and he lay down flat in the grass and have a dog cross down wind of him. Does he do that in the woods?? Hmm... :think:

Really because of that statement his method is flawed.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:34 am

dan wrote:

Code: Select all

I hear ya...I just dont put much stock into tests. [glow=red]For every test out there, you can darn near find one that contradicts the other.[/glow] I like to try stuff out for myself and see what works. As for the Ozonics thing....I'm not sure how I feel about that.


I can't remember ever seeing a test done independently ( not a scent control company) that did not have the same results. Thats pretty convincing to me. If you have seen something different, I would like to see it.


If you are referring to those tests with trained tracking dogs, we could go round and round about the variables of those tests for days. The test that sold me is my real world experiences in the field but I'm also very impressed with this independent test done by the leading University in testing and researching activated carbon. http://www.scentlok.com/wp-content/uplo ... g_Data.pdf
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:43 am

Strenke629 wrote:
dan wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:

He purposefully made his terms ridicules to prevent that...


Lol. Yeah I think in his podcast he said the only way he’d do a test is if he had a helicopter drop him down with a rope and he lay down flat in the grass and have a dog cross down wind of him. Does he do that in the woods?? Hmm... :think:

Really because of that statement his method is flawed.


Its obvious that you dont know how trained tracking dogs work. They follow the ground disturbances when there is no scent to follow. Kinda like if you walked across a dew covered field. It would be easy for anyone to track you without picking up any scent. Being air lifted into a treestand would be a good start for a test. The main problem I have with these tests is like I've stated, I dont believe you can be 100% odor free so the dogs are looking for any scent...even the faintest human odor. Now, is this odor so faint that the deer dont pay much attention to it in areas where they smell humans all the time? Thats impossible to ask the dogs. If you believe, as Dan does, that even the faintest of human odor sends the deer packing then I wouldnt go through the trouble of a scent control regimen. I dont believe it to be this way in the areas I hunt. I've always been a believer in the skunk theory. How do you know how close a skunk is to you when you smell it? Apply that logic to a deer and human scent.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Strenke629 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:01 am

Mathewshooter wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:
dan wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:

He purposefully made his terms ridicules to prevent that...


Lol. Yeah I think in his podcast he said the only way he’d do a test is if he had a helicopter drop him down with a rope and he lay down flat in the grass and have a dog cross down wind of him. Does he do that in the woods?? Hmm... :think:

Really because of that statement his method is flawed.


Its obvious that you dont know how trained tracking dogs work. They follow the ground disturbances when there is no scent to follow. Kinda like if you walked across a dew covered field. It would be easy for anyone to track you without picking up any scent. Being air lifted into a treestand would be a good start for a test. The main problem I have with these tests is like I've stated, I dont believe you can be 100% odor free so the dogs are looking for any scent...even the faintest human odor. Now, is this odor so faint that the deer dont pay much attention to it in areas where they smell humans all the time? Thats impossible to ask the dogs. If you believe, as Dan does, that even the faintest of human odor sends the deer packing then I wouldnt go through the trouble of a scent control regimen. I dont believe it to be this way in the areas I hunt. I've always been a believer in the skunk theory. How do you know how close a skunk is to you when you smell it? Apply that logic to a deer and human scent.


Yeah I do know how tracking dogs work actually. I heard all of what you just said in the podcasts too. In fact though, tracking dogs follow the SCENT of disturbed ground, not the actual visual cue as your describing. This is what I am referring to when I say the completely scent free comment is flawed. Since you can’t be lowered down from a helicopter in the woods, you WILL be leaving behind scent of some kind. Even if your completely human scent free which I believe is impossible. Whether it’s your own or disturbed ground, your leaving behind scent. Deer have a way better sense of smell than dogs do as well, so I can guarentee the deer can smell that same disturbed ground scent. Because of that it’s impossible to be completely scent free the way he talks about. You shouldn’t talk in absolutes because it opens you up to criticism. Saying I’m completely scent free is a BOLD comment in the hunting industry.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:23 am

Strenke629 wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:
dan wrote:
Strenke629 wrote:I wonder if John would ever do an experiment with his method on his terms.. :think:

He purposefully made his terms ridicules to prevent that...


Lol. Yeah I think in his podcast he said the only way he’d do a test is if he had a helicopter drop him down with a rope and he lay down flat in the grass and have a dog cross down wind of him. Does he do that in the woods?? Hmm... :think:

Really because of that statement his method is flawed.


Its obvious that you dont know how trained tracking dogs work. They follow the ground disturbances when there is no scent to follow. Kinda like if you walked across a dew covered field. It would be easy for anyone to track you without picking up any scent. Being air lifted into a treestand would be a good start for a test. The main problem I have with these tests is like I've stated, I dont believe you can be 100% odor free so the dogs are looking for any scent...even the faintest human odor. Now, is this odor so faint that the deer dont pay much attention to it in areas where they smell humans all the time? Thats impossible to ask the dogs. If you believe, as Dan does, that even the faintest of human odor sends the deer packing then I wouldnt go through the trouble of a scent control regimen. I dont believe it to be this way in the areas I hunt. I've always been a believer in the skunk theory. How do you know how close a skunk is to you when you smell it? Apply that logic to a deer and human scent.


Yeah I do know how tracking dogs work actually. I heard all of what you just said in the podcasts too. In fact though, tracking dogs follow the SCENT of disturbed ground, not the actual visual cue as your describing. This is what I am referring to when I say the completely scent free comment is flawed. Since you can’t be lowered down from a helicopter in the woods, you WILL be leaving behind scent of some kind. Even if your completely human scent free which I believe is impossible. Whether it’s your own or disturbed ground, your leaving behind scent. Deer have a way better sense of smell than dogs do as well, so I can guarentee the deer can smell that same disturbed ground scent. Because of that it’s impossible to be completely scent free the way he talks about. You shouldn’t talk in absolutes because it opens you up to criticism. Saying I’m completely scent free is a BOLD comment in the hunting industry.


I agree he shouldnt say he is completely scent free. Even if he was, theres no way to prove that. When he says scent free, I'm sure he's referring to human scent not disturbed ground vegetation. That can be easily masked by having clean rubber boots and coon urine....I do it all the time. The deer sniff my entry trail and just continue on.
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Re: Scent Control Podcast with Dan Infalt & John Eberhart

Unread postby Matty » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:42 pm

Listened to the entire podcast series, but admittedly only skimmed these 30+ pages. Great listen. To me, Dan is like the greatest mature buck detective. He just thinks of things and in a way that most people don't.

I won't badmouth John E. because I think he does really well (way better than me) lol and anyone that kills big bucks consistently is doing something right. He has also written some great books and honestly he hunts kind of similar to most of us here. (primary scrapes near bedding, very stealthy, uses a saddle to get in non-climber trees, scouts a lot while prepping trees in the off season, etc) It's not exactly like our style, but it holds similarities. I also think he really believes in what he's doing and confidence is a huge part of anything. I will however say his claim of not being busted in 18 years or whatever he said was insane. Yeah right. "Been picked, but not winded"...I don't want to call the guy a liar, but holy crap that's a bold statement that I just can't buy.

I also agree with Dan on being stinky sweaty and getting busted less.

First time I really took notice was probably like 2007 or 2008? Rifle hunting upstate NY. I had been in a camp with no shower for 10-11 days. I was doing a mix of stand hunting and still hunting. Well the 10th or 11th day I was still-hunting and ended up getting into deer. Ended up jumping a real large buck and then later shooting a smaller 8 point. During the stalk on the 8 pointer I shot, I had a doe get within feet of me, downwind. As she approached right into my scentstream, I got ready for snorting. It never happened. She never even reacted. She actually stood there for a minute or so nibbling on a bush I was using for cover. Granted she was young, but this was a deep woods deer and I could have touched her and I smelled rotten..... She finally moved off and I ended up shooting the buck a minute or so later.

After that event I started thinking about it more and more. Then I started occasionally hunting confidently without showering or cleaning clothes. (I had already done that from time to time because of work and just trying to get out as often as possible, but generally tried to be clean). Now almost 10 years later I purposely stay sweaty and dirty for many days at a time while hunting. (it would be embarrassing to say how long, lol) Gods honest truth, I get busted less like that. Sounds completely insane, but there's something to it.

I tried scent-lok way back around when it came out. I got busted a lot. Probably because I started to ignore the wind. Though I do remember one time having a buck about 80 yards down wind and he wasn't reacting. As it was getting too dark to shoot, I removed the head net (it was closing time) and suddenly he started snorting. Pretty damn dark and far for him to see me, so that experience did make me wonder if there was something to it, especially the head net....but air currents could have been doing something I didn't realize. I also had many negative experiences wearing scent-lok that negated the one positive in my mind.

Now I'm in a different place anyway. Even if I thought Scent-lok worked, I wouldn't use it.

For me, the last decade or so has been spent trying to learn the wind like it's a job. In fact I think that is our job as bowhunters. That's one of the most fun parts of hunting for me now. So I'm with Dan, I hope they never figure out a way to fool a deers nose. It would take all the fun out of it. I want the deer to win. I want it to be challenging...really challenging. If its not, where is the fun? Where is the accomplishment?


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