post rut doe a no go, an I looking at this wrong?

[Kraftd]

Can't manage genetics in a wild herd, so not worth trying, imo. Sounds like you don't like killing does, which is fine. I prefer not to unless the numbers are very high as well. If I feel the numbers can bear it, time of season is meaningless. Stanley did the math for you.

Other than that my brain hurts.

[Swampbuck]

No matter when you shoot a doe there is one less reproducing deer in the woods so in that regard early or late is indifferent. As to if she was the one that got the golden bucks genes, while a legitimate possibility it's so hypothetical it would be hard for me to factor. One could argue the big buck only breads does in his vicinity or numerous other variables that would lead that for doe getting bred by him or not regardless of early or late taking of other does... I've also read that the mother actually is a bigger contributer to genetics as well, true or not who knows but there's that. I don't think it matters one way or the other. Personally if I shoot one it's going to be late. I try not to shoot one at all and only do if it's the last weekend and I am buckless....

[magicman54494]

I think that us humans tend to overthink things.

[wolverinebuckman]

I think that us humans tend to overthink things.

The good Lord gave us a brain for a reason my friend, one that far exceeds that of anything we see in nature. If we stopped thinking at the last guys good idea, we would never come up with anything new...

[wolverinebuckman]

Can't manage genetics in a wild herd, so not worth trying, imo. Sounds like you don't like killing does, which is fine. I prefer not to unless the numbers are very high as well. If I feel the numbers can bear it, time of season is meaningless. Stanley did the math for you.

Other than that my brain hurts.

I'm really indifferent to shooting does and likely will given the pre rut opportunity, as long as a buck isn't following along or she isnt with her small fawn. I've never actually had an opportunity other than rut or post. I could have put down many now since the rut, I've been covered in does and fawns the last month. They are way less a hunting challenge this time of year, aren't they?

Don't know if your a Python's fan or not, but -- "my brain hurts, too."

[wolverinebuckman]

[quote="Swampbuck"I try not to shoot one at all and only do if it's the last weekend and I am buckless....[/quote]

Got to feed the family, brother. I'm not hating. I was blessed with my first deer this year, a two-and-a-half-year-old buck. He's filled our freezer, and graced our dinner table many of times already. I sure am hoping to add one of his buckins to the freezer before new years!
Merry Christmas!

[wolverinebuckman]

Merry Christmas to all of you guys! Thanks for the great discussions!

[wolverinebuckman]

Third scenario; I will agree with you killing bucks is the way to go. So if you kill no does you still have 10 pregnant does at the end of the season. Come late spring you have 10 does giving birth to fawns.

Let me swim a little bit deeper into the pool.

let's say that you go out into the woods to hunt for a plant. You use this plant for medicine, maybe food too. It's a good plant. When you get out into the woods you find one of these plants, and you take some of its fruit. When you get home you taste the fruit and realize it is exceptional. Some of the best that you've ever had, and as an added bonus you find 10 seeds in one of the fruits. Now, you take these 10 seeds and plant them in various fields, and to your delight all 10 seeds Sprout and take root. now based on various conditions three of those seeds don't make it, three of them are unable to produce any more seed due to various reasons, but four of them make it and are strong seedlings. Now you won't know which ones of those seedlings will bear the great fruit that its parent plant did until it's grown and bears fruit itself.
So here become your choices...back off, give them all the light they need to grow, or pull a couple of them up from the root and toss them on the ground to whither and rot.
Every one of those bred does has life's greatest potential within her growing.

[wolverinebuckman]

To me it seems there are these things, reproductive potential, most creatures possess that unless they have some various medical reason that prevents it. Even though we possess this potential, it does not mean that it will ever come to fruition.

Then there is conception.

Now there is what I would call Life potential. It's the potential for that life that has been conceived to become great.

Before I met my wife, I had tons of reproductive potential. Most of that potential never did make it to the ball game, so to speak, , but once it did make it into the ball game, there was conception. My baby, the potential of New Life. That life could be anything, something great if given the opportunity.
if someone eliminated my wife prior to us coming together, they would have removed one of our reproductive potential. my reproductive potential would remain the same and I could still spread my seed elsewhere. If somebody eliminated my wife after conception, they would be eliminating much more than just her. They would also be eliminating the life and it's potential that was growing within.
This concept can be applied to anything living.

[stash59]

Unlike humans. Wild animals, like deer, reproduction cycles have developed to insure conception is nearer to 100%. It may take a human female multiple cycles to get pregnant. Of course humans have about 12 cycles in a year. Whereas deer have 1,2 with 3 at most cycles.

One of the 1st whitetail fetal studies done showed that at estrous. Does have anywhere from 3-10 eggs present in their uterous. Depending on health and age. Most of these eggs get fertilized. As the embryos develop and the stress of winter increases. The does need for protein causes most of the embryos to be absorbed back into her body.

Again depending on the does health and age. This absorbtion stops at a certain point and the remaining fetuses continue to develop. Which determines how many fawns she will actually have. If a doe is in poor health and conditions are severe enough. She may absorb all of the embryos. These can include the older fawnless does that many consider as barren. But if the next year conditions are milder. She may actually still bear a fawn.

Since a younger doe usually starts out with less eggs to fertilize in the first place. They stand a greater chance of absorbing all of the embryos that get started. Especially if breed late in the breeding season. With a shorter time before severe weather hits. And the fact that their bodies are still developing yet (like bucks does don't reach full maturity until 4-5 Y.O.). Requiring more of her nutrition to go towards that development. Instead of embryonic development. Stressful winters will almost assure she will absorb each one of her embryos. So not killing a young doe late in the season doesn't assure that even if breed. She will bear a fawn come spring.

Add in it's still about 50-50 whether it will be a doe or buck fawn. If she does successfully bear a fawn. Not killing one has a pretty minimal affect on getting a buck period. Then because the average yearling buck relocates 5 miles, sometimes way more. From it's birth area. You seeing that Booner buck years down the road are slim to none in that area you passed on that doe.

Then factor in it usually takes these late born fawns 3 years to catch up enough physically to their 1 1/2- 2 month older cousins. To start matching antler growth potentials. On most public lands they'll be killed well before they can reach Booner status even with all of the best genetics.

In Texas, the heart of the whitetail world of trying to cull bucks to improve genetics. Newer studies have shown that with wild herds. Improvement of genetics is so minimal. That it's basically non-existent.

So unless an areas herd is so pitifully low in it's D/S.M. ratio that no does should be killed. Ethics has nothing to do with it. But it is still a personal choice. Whether it's sound management or not.

As far as your last post. "Every" deer we kill reduces that potential. Killing a Booner buck while he is still a prime healthy breeder. Reduces his potential to sire another trophy caliber buck/s. We hunt to kill. We can't have our cake and eat it too, so to speak. Your thinking is only going to affect things in the deer world by a small percentage. A percentage measured in decimal points. Way, way too many variables in a wild deer herd!!!!

[checkerfred]

If you don’t want to ‘kill’ an actual physical fetus that is one thing. But the effect on the herd is the same whether you kill a doe before or after she is bred.

About this theoretical fetus’ ‘genetic’ potential, well, that is a rabbit hole I am not going down...

If I am hunting in an area with low deer numbers I don’t shoot does, anytime of the season. If I am hunting somewhere with high deer numbers I would shoot a doe anytime of the season.

Outside of that, do what makes you happy. Fill your freezer when you need to, live and let live when you can.

exactly what I wanted to say

[Stanley]

I think that us humans tend to overthink things.

I like the way you think.

[Hawthorne]

My thoughts are if you think like that, don’t shoot a doe. There’s plenty of hunters that will shoot them. I know lots of hunters that won’t shoot does even when their areas are over ran with them. Seems to be the older generation that grew up with traditional deer management or in their youth when there were hardly any deer. Good luck whatever you do

[creepingdeth]

Is it the chicken before the egg or vice versa...I'd take the shot

[Boogieman1]

And the theory on saving a doe cause she was bred by a giant doesn’t hold water. The buck only brings half the genetics to the party, even if the doe got bred by a monster the fawn my be a basket rack. And the doe bred by a basket rack my give birth to a monster.

While I agree the doe brings half the ingredients to the party for baby making, I would say the history of breeding for genetic dominance usually selects the male (think horses).
Or consider a genetically gifted athlete, have you noticed when he spreads his seed in many fields, often times you see many of his offspring are also more genetically gifted. That points more to the male's seed being the determining factor than the females' fields.

I completely understand what u r trying to say, but the fact is the entire process is a crapshoot there’s no guarantees or certainties. I mean honestly u want his seed spread, then the answer is quite simple! Don’t shoot the buck... In my opinion all the concerns about genetics and what not are for deer farmers, the avg joe shouldn’t worry about it, if he wants a doe shoot the doe cause the next guy prob will. Playing the “what if” game just don’t work cause what if by me shooting a doe late season it made room for another with better genetics that bred the big buck the following year and fawned a world class giant. This wouldn’t have been possible if I didn’t shoot the late season doe. But I honestly do get where u r coming from and respect your look at herd management and better hunting opportunities