post rut doe a no go, an I looking at this wrong?

[JShea]

My preference would be only to shoot a doe with no fawn in tow. Her fawn should be good to go by that point. I watched a doe and her young button buck on camera all season at my grandpa's. I left them both alone. Figured she would make for good buck bait, and maybe he would hang in the area and i could watch him grow.
As for the buck on his own at around 6 months, learning to fend for himself at such a young age could actually benefit him in reaching the mature ages that you're looking for with your booner buck. A buck walking around with it's mother all hunting season will have him in those easy to kill spots doe seem to congregate to. Just a thought.[/quote]


You keep worrying about having a buck turn into something big and watching him grow up into something.
There's many studies that show young bucks will and do relocate a couple times by the time they are 2.5 years old. (5-30 miles away)
I know I've seen lots of 1.5's around my area for a week or two then you never see them again. These deer seem dumb but they are trying to find an area to live.
I know what your trying to do but on an 80 acre property your not going to change much.
The buck you shot had the best chance to turn into something because he was a resident.

I shoot doe but I try to keep the older Doe in the area and shoot a 1.5 old doe or a doe with no fawns. But your over thinking it or you just don't want to shoot a doe and thats fine..someone else will.

[Lu Rome]

I was not, until I was conceived. Before that my dad's genes were in his jeans, so to speak. If he had some nice genes (say he could jump really high) he wanted to pass on he could spread them to a female....or two, or 5.
I get that jumping gene. The others may or may not. It's passed on at conception. Let's say you rob the carry out and shoot my mom, we both die...and those jumping genes are gone now.
Back up a year. You rob the same carryout and shoot the same girl, but she is not pregnant, I will never be conceived. You won't be killing me too, in the physical...perhaps in the philosophical.
The entire point revolves around what is conceived, versus what isn't.

You just made everyone's point with this illustration. No matter when your mom was shot, "you" will never grow up.

As for shooting young "dumb" bucks...all "young" bucks are "dumb". Heck, even the old "smart" bucks chase does at 1030 am. The only thing you're doing is getting rid of another buck. You aren't doing the world a favor. Same with your pup. He might be a knot headed pup, but he'll grow out of that. This forum is full of men like that. We were all dumb, and some grew out of that (some not ).

Many people put lots of magical powers into deer, particularly bucks. Making them the smartest animals in the woods. Tell me: who has more at risk a doe with her twin fawns or a buck with his antlers? How would a buck know that his antlers are highly prized by his predator? Mature bucks aren't smart, just like does aren't dumb. Mature bucks are rare making them hard to find and kill and does have different nutritional needs (esp during our seasons) making them more likely to utilize food resources in ways that make them appear dumb.

You keep saying that the doe might've been bred by the Heisman of deer. What if she was bred by the "jobless drunkard bum" of deer? The more deer you see, the more you'll realize that they're just deer.

Truth be told, a habitat that has fewer deer than it could support will produce bucks with bigger antlers than a habitat that has too many deer.

There's a difference between thinking and overthinking....

[wolverinebuckman]

Many people put lots of magical powers into deer, particularly bucks. Making them the smartest animals in the woods. Tell me: who has more at risk a doe with her twin fawns or a buck with his antlers? How would a buck know that his antlers are highly prized by his predator? Mature bucks aren't smart, just like does aren't dumb. Mature bucks are rare making them hard to find and kill and does have different nutritional needs (esp during our seasons) making them more likely to utilize food resources in ways that make them appear dumb.

You keep saying that the doe might've been bred by the Heisman of deer. What if she was bred by the "jobless drunkard bum" of deer? The more deer you see, the more you'll realize that they're just deer.

I have precisely zero experience with large deer. I have seen lots of Does and fawns though that I could have easily shot.
I've seen on different hunting shows bucks exhibit a type of survival Instinct that seems to be different than their female counterparts.
I watched one Buck allow Dan to bounce milkweed off of its nose. I watched another buck just start to come across Aaron warbritton's scent stream and Bolt the other direction. I would say that this is a difference between the two bucks that will cause one to survive much longer than the other. Why are mature bucks rare?

Also, not knowing who knocked up the doe (the stud or the drunken slob) is precisely my point of why I choose to let her walk.

Finally, I believe all life begins at conception. That is why I say one doesn't exist before that. You cannot kill what has not been created.

[Catskills]

I was not, until I was conceived. Before that my dad's genes were in his jeans, so to speak. If he had some nice genes (say he could jump really high) he wanted to pass on he could spread them to a female....or two, or 5.
I get that jumping gene. The others may or may not. It's passed on at conception. Let's say you rob the carry out and shoot my mom, we both die...and those jumping genes are gone now.
Back up a year. You rob the same carryout and shoot the same girl, but she is not pregnant, I will never be conceived. You won't be killing me too, in the physical...perhaps in the philosophical.
The entire point revolves around what is conceived, versus what isn't.

You just made everyone's point with this illustration. No matter when your mom was shot, "you" will never grow up.

As for shooting young "dumb" bucks...all "young" bucks are "dumb". Heck, even the old "smart" bucks chase does at 1030 am. The only thing you're doing is getting rid of another buck. You aren't doing the world a favor. Same with your pup. He might be a knot headed pup, but he'll grow out of that. This forum is full of men like that. We were all dumb, and some grew out of that (some not ).

Many people put lots of magical powers into deer, particularly bucks. Making them the smartest animals in the woods. Tell me: who has more at risk a doe with her twin fawns or a buck with his antlers? How would a buck know that his antlers are highly prized by his predator? Mature bucks aren't smart, just like does aren't dumb. Mature bucks are rare making them hard to find and kill and does have different nutritional needs (esp during our seasons) making them more likely to utilize food resources in ways that make them appear dumb.

You keep saying that the doe might've been bred by the Heisman of deer. What if she was bred by the "jobless drunkard bum" of deer? The more deer you see, the more you'll realize that they're just deer.

Truth be told, a habitat that has fewer deer than it could support will produce bucks with bigger antlers than a habitat that has too many deer.

There's a difference between thinking and overthinking....

Well said

[wolverinebuckman]

Being from the land of high fences and where deer farming is the norm I have had easy access to ask questions and hit these folks up for intel that might help me in the wild. First off, not a whole heck of a lot, completely different animal pressure trumps all. But still got some food for thought by talking with them here are somethings I found interesting. Most of these farms are completely operating on commercialized food during days of harsh weather there intake more than doubles. This explains all the does and young deer in the field during cold weather, but makes me think what a isolated food source in heavy cover might be.. Another thing I enjoyed was them saying a lot of times u can tell nothing about a bucks full potential until he’s over 3.5, they have spike bucks who develop into booners given the time to develop. Also even in a controlled environment some bucks are born with a trait to be nocturnal and some prefer daylight movement no matter how old they get. Like I said how this translate to wild pressured deer is suspect but still interesting. My personal opinion is leave the concerns over the genetics to the deer farmers and shoot what makes u happy.

Thanks for the info! I live in the land of if it's brown it's down. With 100's of 40 and 80 acre farms in se Michigan, dotted with little timber patches, as well as severely pressured state land, they don't get too many big ones around here. I've seen pictures of a few.
I would have loved to see what the young 9 I shot in October would have been in a couple of years, but if I didn't shoot him he'd probably have died 50' away on the next guys field.

But in this case by you shooting him he definately "did" die. No chance at all of getting a chance to grow older. Maybe he would have got lucky and lived to grow a Booner rack if you hadn't.

Not condemning you for killing him. Just pointing out you can drive yourself crazy speculating on wild deer and the what if's. Buck, doe. fawn or unborn fetus. Your first post asked if you were thinking wrong on the original point. IMHO yes. Because of scientific studies, not so scientific studies and hunter's experiences, personal experiences. I've seen, been told or witnessed.

Later you more or less said it was just a personal preference. So why even ask anybody if it's wrong thinking. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks in that case. Do what makes you happy.

Stash, my op expressed how I seen the pregnant doe, as more than one deer.
I also posed the thought that we do not know the genetics that were carried in that doe's womb. These still, IMO, are valid beliefs.
The thread definitely has rabbit trailed since then.
I am definitely certain that I have not condemned anybody for shooting Does at any time of the year. I've also stated from pretty early in the thread that this was a personal choice, how I seen it.
many have given their personal reasons on why they shoot does, I'm fine with all of you seeing nothing wrong with shooting them after the rut. These in themselves are personal choices, and seem to be the voice of the community in general. That's great. My point of the post was to spark discussion and debate on the topic, I'd say that happened . I have yet to hear compelling arguments that would cause me to change my thoughts on the issue. In essence, I do shoot what makes me happy!

Out of curiosity, do you value the reward of killing a giant buck that has spent most of it's years being repeatedly passed over on a private piece, or the smaller racked mature deer that has made it by eluding hunters on highly pressured public all his life?

[stash59]

Being from the land of high fences and where deer farming is the norm I have had easy access to ask questions and hit these folks up for intel that might help me in the wild. First off, not a whole heck of a lot, completely different animal pressure trumps all. But still got some food for thought by talking with them here are somethings I found interesting. Most of these farms are completely operating on commercialized food during days of harsh weather there intake more than doubles. This explains all the does and young deer in the field during cold weather, but makes me think what a isolated food source in heavy cover might be.. Another thing I enjoyed was them saying a lot of times u can tell nothing about a bucks full potential until he’s over 3.5, they have spike bucks who develop into booners given the time to develop. Also even in a controlled environment some bucks are born with a trait to be nocturnal and some prefer daylight movement no matter how old they get. Like I said how this translate to wild pressured deer is suspect but still interesting. My personal opinion is leave the concerns over the genetics to the deer farmers and shoot what makes u happy.

Thanks for the info! I live in the land of if it's brown it's down. With 100's of 40 and 80 acre farms in se Michigan, dotted with little timber patches, as well as severely pressured state land, they don't get too many big ones around here. I've seen pictures of a few.
I would have loved to see what the young 9 I shot in October would have been in a couple of years, but if I didn't shoot him he'd probably have died 50' away on the next guys field.

But in this case by you shooting him he definately "did" die. No chance at all of getting a chance to grow older. Maybe he would have got lucky and lived to grow a Booner rack if you hadn't.

Not condemning you for killing him. Just pointing out you can drive yourself crazy speculating on wild deer and the what if's. Buck, doe. fawn or unborn fetus. Your first post asked if you were thinking wrong on the original point. IMHO yes. Because of scientific studies, not so scientific studies and hunter's experiences, personal experiences. I've seen, been told or witnessed.

Later you more or less said it was just a personal preference. So why even ask anybody if it's wrong thinking. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks in that case. Do what makes you happy.

Stash, my op expressed how I seen the pregnant doe, as more than one deer.
I also posed the thought that we do not know the genetics that were carried in that doe's womb. These still, IMO, are valid beliefs.
The thread definitely has rabbit trailed since then.
I am definitely certain that I have not condemned anybody for shooting Does at any time of the year. I've also stated from pretty early in the thread that this was a personal choice, how I seen it.
many have given their personal reasons on why they shoot does, I'm fine with all of you seeing nothing wrong with shooting them after the rut. These in themselves are personal choices, and seem to be the voice of the community in general. That's great. My point of the post was to spark discussion and debate on the topic, I'd say that happened . I have yet to hear compelling arguments that would cause me to change my thoughts on the issue. In essence, I do shoot what makes me happy!

Out of curiosity, do you value the reward of killing a giant buck that has spent most of it's years being repeatedly passed over on a private piece, or the smaller racked mature deer that has made it by eluding hunters on highly pressured public all his life?

I believe they both have value!!!!!!!

Even on highly managed properties (Not high fence). Killing the oldest most mature buck is no gimme. Yeah he probably got some breaks as a youngster that saved his life. Also the fact that plenty of food was available all year long throughout it's life. To aid in reaching his full potential. Would possibly mean a much larger rack. Which really has nothing to do with how much better his survival instincts are. Compared to the younger bucks.

As far as high pressured bucks, either on public or private. They may gain the same measure of survival instincts at a younger age. But because of the overwhelming number of hunters/sq.mi. His luck may still run out at a much younger age. Simply because he is also a much sought after quarry even though still young compared to his well managed counterpart.

I know your mind is made up on when life starts. But to me it's the same as the old what came first, the chicken or the egg argument. Pretty sound reasons to believe either way.

[Lu Rome]

I have precisely zero experience with large deer. I have seen lots of Does and fawns though that I could have easily shot.
I've seen on different hunting shows bucks exhibit a type of survival Instinct that seems to be different than their female counterparts.
I watched one Buck allow Dan to bounce milkweed off of its nose. I watched another buck just start to come across Aaron warbritton's scent stream and Bolt the other direction. I would say that this is a difference between the two bucks that will cause one to survive much longer than the other. Why are mature bucks rare?

Also, not knowing who knocked up the doe (the stud or the drunken slob) is precisely my point of why I choose to let her walk.

Finally, I believe all life begins at conception. That is why I say one doesn't exist before that. You cannot kill what has not been created.

Why do you think mature bucks are rare? Why is the survival of bucks lower than that of does, especially if bucks are the smartest animal in the woods?

1. We shoot the crap out of bucks.
2. Males of all species exhibit riskier behavior than their female counterparts for a number of reasons. Resource acquisition and breeding being the main 2 reasons.

The difference between Dan's vid and Aaron's isn't a genetic difference in intelligence. It's a learned response to an experienced stimulus. Bad experiences lead to negative responses and vice versa. Humans are the same way. Sometimes they don't care and there's no consequence, and sometimes they end up dead. Those are just two examples of what happens. Spend enough time in the woods and you'll see it yourself.

You'll note that I didn't use "exist". Without intervention, before conception or after, the result is the same, a fawn will be born. The result is also the same whether the doe is shot before or after. If you're concerned about taking multiple deer, cash in two tags if if appeases your conscience. I have nothing against using conception as a reason (and believe the same about life) but you're doing yourself a disservice coming to this forum portraying yourself as the bigger thinker and arguing with this group of hunters. There isn't a better (or wiser) forum when it comes to deer hunting and members willing to share and help beginners out. The best thing to do here is read and listen. Raise questions if you have them, but don't insult the mature bucks here. You'll argue my last point I know, but all the etc. are just a passive way of doing so.

Have a great remainder of the season!

[wolverinebuckman]

There isn't a better (or wiser) forum when it comes to deer hunting and members willing to share and help beginners out. The best thing to do here is read and listen. Raise questions if you have them, but don't insult the mature bucks here. You'll argue my last point I know, but all the etc. are just a passive way of doing so.

Have a great remainder of the season!

I agree with you Lu Rome, there is a tremendous amount of knowledge to be gained on here. I believe in seeking knowledge from those who have experience. I also believe in weighing all I here against sound judgment before accepting it. I also believe in the free exchange of ideas and thoughts among peers in a respectful and intellectual way, without insult or hostility.
I have noticed in the 7 or so pages of debate this question sparked, many of the "mature bucks" have kindly debated points back and forth. A few posters have been on the sarcastic side. I generally don't bother with them. All have expressed opinions, a few have thrown in informative facts. If any of the "mature bucks" have been insulted by my sharing of thought or opinion (which is never my intent), maybe they are a little thin skinned. Doesn't sound like many of the hunters I know.
Enjoy the rest of your season, as well. May God bless you with the deer of your dreams!

[wolverinebuckman]

I'm going to be done with this. My final point.
Dan just posted a link to a really cool Buck kill story, The Candy Man.
That's obviously one of the "Its" of bucks.
That massive, crafty beast made it , God knows how, through years in heavily pressured lands.
He lived to do three things. Eat and grow, spread his seed, and be steak.
What if, by some random chance HIS DNA was growing in the womb of that doe I have my pin set on?
Maybe this guy, or another who thinks like me, had his pin on "The Candy Man's" mother 6 years ago and decided not to shoot. This guy's glad for that.

That's the reason I see it as I do, why post rut doe a no go, for me. Thanks all for the discussion.

[JShea]

What if that button buck is already on the ground? You kill that december Doe that creates more food for that lottery ticket deer to eat his first winter.

Here in Pa guys used to be stubborn about shooting doe. I remember going rifle hunting in my early years and seeing 100 doe and no buck in a week.
Now that we have antler restrictions in place for a ten years the deer are healthier theres a bunch of 2.5 year old buck running around every year. You'll see less deer but 3 out of 10 will be buck.

If you don't shoot the doe they will keep the bucks out of the best feed and eat their house and home resulting in smaller racks less healthy deer all around.

With the antler restrictions they had to kill more doe because they knew they would carry more bucks into next season so for the deers health they shot more doe.

[stash59]

I'm going to be done with this. My final point.
Dan just posted a link to a really cool Buck kill story, The Candy Man.
That's obviously one of the "Its" of bucks.
That massive, crafty beast made it , God knows how, through years in heavily pressured lands.
He lived to do three things. Eat and grow, spread his seed, and be steak.
What if, by some random chance HIS DNA was growing in the womb of that doe I have my pin set on?
Maybe this guy, or another who thinks like me, had his pin on "The Candy Man's" mother 6 years ago and decided not to shoot. This guy's glad for that.

That's the reason I see it as I do, why post rut doe a no go, for me. Thanks all for the discussion.

The point your missing is that with every deer killed. Buck, doe, fawn, pregnant doe. Early, middle, late season, even summer kills from car/deer accidents. Your removing a certain percentage for the chance that a rare animal like the "Candy Man" buck will ever come into existence. Even by the hunter killing the "Candy Man". How do we know that he didn't die before getting an opportunity to breed with that special doe that also carried the proper genes to create that next super buck. With this year being the one year where the stars were going to align so the right egg in the doe would be fertilized by the right sperm from the buck.

Maybe by killing a inferior gened buck. That inferior buck never pushes that special doe into an area that causes the doe to cross paths with a super buck. Too many variables in wild deer to only focus on one detail to try and hopefully come up with Mr. Super Buck!

[wolverinebuckman]

I'm going to be done with this. My final point.
Dan just posted a link to a really cool Buck kill story, The Candy Man.
That's obviously one of the "Its" of bucks.
That massive, crafty beast made it , God knows how, through years in heavily pressured lands.
He lived to do three things. Eat and grow, spread his seed, and be steak.
What if, by some random chance HIS DNA was growing in the womb of that doe I have my pin set on?
Maybe this guy, or another who thinks like me, had his pin on "The Candy Man's" mother 6 years ago and decided not to shoot. This guy's glad for that.

That's the reason I see it as I do, why post rut doe a no go, for me. Thanks all for the discussion.

The point your missing is that with every deer killed. Buck, doe, fawn, pregnant doe. Early, middle, late season, even summer kills from car/deer accidents. Your removing a certain percentage for the chance that a rare animal like the "Candy Man" buck will ever come into existence. Even by the hunter killing the "Candy Man". How do we know that he didn't die before getting an opportunity to breed with that special doe that also carried the proper genes to create that next super buck. With this year being the one year where the stars were going to align so the right egg in the doe would be fertilized by the right sperm from the buck.

Maybe by killing a inferior gened buck. That inferior buck never pushes that special doe into an area that causes the doe to cross paths with a super buck. Too many variables in wild deer to only focus on one detail to try and hopefully come up with Mr. Super Buck!

You are correct, I can't control all of the variables in this situation, but there is 1 variable that I do have control over.

[pilgrimhunter]

It is almost ironic that we discuss genetic possibilities in these does and what they may produce and then go out there and make it a point to kill he deer that we know hold the best genetics. If we would all go to shooting the bucks with bad genetics and let the big guys walk........

I was somehow under the impression that hunting success was not to be measured inches but rather the success. I am all about good genetics but that is not the ultimate. The reason I like to take large deer is that it is the pursuit and accomplishment of taking the smarter /older deer.

[muddy]

I'll shoot a doe early season if she's trailing 3 fawns. Ill shoot a doe late season if she's round as a barrel preggo. Ill shoot a doe if she walks by me after I physically see her get bred by a 200 incher. No regrets and a full belly!

[ghoasthunter]

I hunt does once a year when I'm forced too by fish and game earn a buck sucks. I try not to think about it to much and kill the first one makes me feel bad every time but its meat and warm up. I used to be selective till i had a encounter with the biggest buck I've ever seen under my tree and couldn't shoot. now my buddy has a small farm house on 9 acers surrounded by woods that nobody can hunt so i go their and fill that tag opening day like uncle ted.