I Think Its Starting to Click

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Trout
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I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby Trout » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:29 am

I think I've heard you guys say 1,000,000 times now that hunting mature bucks is different than hunting whitetails, and I thought I understood what that meant, but then I listened to the southern outdoorsmen podcast this week with Bill Thompson from Spartan Forge (episode 268 for anyone who wants to listen) and they talked about buck movement and some pretty advanced telemetry data thats never been analyzed the way they're analyzing it. And now I think I finally get it. I'm not sure I'm ready to exclusively target mature bucks when I'm not meat hunting, but I can feel myself going through the phases and heading that direction.

So I have a question for the mature buck killers-

To kill a mature buck, you dont hunt the sign all the deer are making. An example from the podcast was a saddle. All the does and young bucks are using that saddle, the mature buck is in the heavy cover downwind of that saddle scent checking the saddle to know who is using it, and during the rut, checking if the does are starting to go into estrous. He might be scent checking from cover 100-200yds downwind. So if you are set up on the saddle where all the sign is, you will not only never see him, you will let him know you're there and he will just go around you to get to those does that used the saddle he has interest in. He is doing the same thing to check trail camera locations, permanent stand sites, accesses, etc.

To hunt a mature buck, I shouldn't stop scouting to locate all the doe and young buck sign, but I should be finding it to help predict where the mature buck will be monitoring that sign from. I feel like I am probably better off using my spring/summer scouting time just going into the woods with a backpack full of milkweed under various wind conditions and finding seeing where the wind blows to from the normal deer sign, and that will be where I should be hunting and/or looking for mature buck sign. When I find a runway or doe bedding, I should be dropping milkweed to see where a mature buck would be monitoring it from downwind (during multiple wind directions but focusing on the primary). And where the milkweed falls, I should walk there and repeat until I get to the first heavy cover. And to take it a step further, it would make sense to be finding places where he can't smell from great distances to kind of narrow down the cover he might be using. Add to that, I need to find where he is bedding so I can narrow down what his intentions are when he gets up in the evening- whats the first food, water or doe hotspot he will go to from his bed. And when I have a good idea where he is scent checking all this from, I should be setting up downwind of that, as close to his bed as possible.

Feels obvious to say out loud, especially after basically all of that being said so much here, but I just want to confirm, do I finally get it? Anything you would add?


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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby Hookslinger » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:38 am

:shock: My head just about exploded reading your post. There are levels to this game, and I'm not on that level yet.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby BA-IV » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:25 am

That podcast is crazy with information. The map videos of the buck is even crazier!!!!

I’m in the same boat, I’m not sure here in the south I’m ready to go all season and see one or two buck sightings no matter if they’re the ONE I’m after. I enjoy deer hunting and seeing animals and wildlife in general. I WILL change my game though and tweak all my setups and start targeting and setting up with how big bucks use it in the future.

Another thing that podcast does is make you wonder how the heck someone kills these things on a regular basis :think:
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby PK_ » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:15 am

Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby BA-IV » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:32 am

PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.


I don’t wanna derail this thread by no means, but since you answered and mentioned the gps data…When do you think enough is enough with say the Spartan Forge AI information. Are we going to lose the woodsmanship attached to hunting, how did the OG killers get it done without this, do you consider it unfair with all the GPS data? Just playing devils advocate, no different then cell cams. I mention this because the thought hit me WHILE I was listening to the podcast and soaking it up and thinking this is a GameChanger for sure, but when is enough to much? Just a thought though, cuz I’m soaking the gps data up and learning just how little I knew about mature buck movement!
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby greenhorndave » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:44 am

PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.

Dude, that was a Zen paragraph. It totally made more sense than the “it’s a different animal” line. Totally gives me a new way to think about it. :handgestures-thumbup:
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby PK_ » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:26 am

BA-IV wrote:
PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.


I don’t wanna derail this thread by no means, but since you answered and mentioned the gps data…When do you think enough is enough with say the Spartan Forge AI information. Are we going to lose the woodsmanship attached to hunting, how did the OG killers get it done without this, do you consider it unfair with all the GPS data? Just playing devils advocate, no different then cell cams. I mention this because the thought hit me WHILE I was listening to the podcast and soaking it up and thinking this is a GameChanger for sure, but when is enough to much? Just a thought though, cuz I’m soaking the gps data up and learning just how little I knew about mature buck movement!


No, I think it’s super interesting but there is no replacement for hard work, woodsmanship and experience. The gap between knowledge and action is far greater than the divide between ignorance and intelligence. If knowledge and data lead directly to results we would all be walking around with 6pack abs and fat bank accounts.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby seazofcheeze » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:14 am

PK_ wrote:
BA-IV wrote:
PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.


I don’t wanna derail this thread by no means, but since you answered and mentioned the gps data…When do you think enough is enough with say the Spartan Forge AI information. Are we going to lose the woodsmanship attached to hunting, how did the OG killers get it done without this, do you consider it unfair with all the GPS data? Just playing devils advocate, no different then cell cams. I mention this because the thought hit me WHILE I was listening to the podcast and soaking it up and thinking this is a GameChanger for sure, but when is enough to much? Just a thought though, cuz I’m soaking the gps data up and learning just how little I knew about mature buck movement!


No, I think it’s super interesting but there is no replacement for hard work, woodsmanship and experience. The gap between knowledge and action is far greater than the divide between ignorance and intelligence. If knowledge and data lead directly to results we would all be walking around with 6pack abs and fat bank accounts.


I agree. Spartan Forge will benefit primarily Spartan Forge. It will also benefit a few hardworking, intelligent, and patient guys. It will hurt the majority as they lean all their weight on a crutch.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby mipubbucks24 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:29 am

BA-IV wrote:
PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.


I don’t wanna derail this thread by no means, but since you answered and mentioned the gps data…When do you think enough is enough with say the Spartan Forge AI information. Are we going to lose the woodsmanship attached to hunting, how did the OG killers get it done without this, do you consider it unfair with all the GPS data? Just playing devils advocate, no different then cell cams. I mention this because the thought hit me WHILE I was listening to the podcast and soaking it up and thinking this is a GameChanger for sure, but when is enough to much? Just a thought though, cuz I’m soaking the gps data up and learning just how little I knew about mature buck movement!


In my opinion people who have all the data and none of the woodsman-ship will still struggle to consistently kill mature deer. I listened to the podcast and it was great, but each individual buck has its own personality and each exposes itself to danger at different levels, it is not one size fits all. Last year I had 3 sits in a row with a mature buck in bow range, only killed 1. That didn’t happen because of data. It happened because it has taken me years to learn the woods and deer behavior and how to read the sign, and how the older bucks use the terrain. On one of the mornings I took a friend and he mentioned to me that he did not want to take my spot, and I told him the spot I put him was a deer spot, but the spot I was going was a big buck spot. Sure enough he saw 4 doe and 2 small bucks, and shot one of them. I saw a mature buck, they are a different Animal. But the podcast makes it seem like it’s impossible to kill mature bucks, that is flat false, guys do it every year and you have no further to look then this forum for proof of that. And many guys on this forum are darn good at it, and are in the top 1% of whitetail deer hunters.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby Quest1001 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:38 pm

I was sitting in a funnel last fall, all the does and smaller bucks were walking through the tree line transition but I was caught off guard when a mature buck actually skirted an open field connecting two points about 30 yards east of the traditional deer travel. I didn’t expect that.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby Dhoff » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:41 pm

Hookslinger wrote::shock: My head just about exploded reading your post. There are levels to this game, and I'm not on that level yet.

X2...someday
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby justdirtyfun » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:04 pm

Good discussion here. Lately I have thought about evening thermals. A good Beast hunter can set up a buck using thermals to their advantage. For about 1 hour out of 24.
Those bucks us falling thermals ALL NIGHT LONG. And then anticipate the daytime thermals as they pick a bed.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:20 pm

I would add that unless it is near bedding it will not matter 90 percent of the year. Even rut most mature bucks use the thermals and wind extremely well and will not be easy to kill on public.

Their is specific instances they check does upwind and downwind.

Technically yes a mature buck may travel downwind of a feeding area, saddle or rub line. However the only use that would be is if bedding is close enough for him to reach that spot in daylight. Might work for night cam locations.

Even if you know where to look to find a buck killing him is far more complicated. When I started I thought I had it figured out and reality was it took me 3 years , hunting and looking at hundreds of bedding areas before I began to understand which ones are important.

When you have it figured out you realize thermals make it extremely difficult to setup close onto bucks. I can know the bedding spot they are laying in and I still get busted often from thermals.

Alot of guys find buck bedding of young bucks see a few nice rubs from a 2 year old and think they have it figured out. 2 year olds out down the majority of buck sign and it is easy to get caught up in hunting two year olds when starting.

Mature bucks bed and move differently then all other deer.
New beast will let small bucks tag them along.
It is more about recognizing where not to hunt and what bedding to ignore.

I cant stress pressure enough my mature buck kills every one has come from my first sit ever in a spot. And neither had good sign near it. They were from spots 99 percent of hunters wouldn't have paid attention too or cared about if they walked through it.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby BA-IV » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:39 pm

mipubbucks24 wrote:
BA-IV wrote:
PK_ wrote:Yea you are on the right track. I wanted to get deeper into mature buck behavior and how they use the landscape vs other deer in the podcasts I did but there just wasn’t enough time. The truth is that the majority of deer and hunters are playing checkers and the mature bucks are playing chess.

Everybody says mature bucks are a different animal but nobody explains why and what that means. People often say it’s that they are ‘loners’, bed separately and are more nocturnal. Which is sometimes the case. But the more important part to understand is that their use of the landscape is different because their purpose is different at different times of the year. Say early and late season yes it may have more to do with the bucks just bedding farther and moving later. But come the rut, you are now hunting a predator that has become very efficient at finding its prey(hot doe).

The good news is once you start playing chess instead of checkers you will win the game much more often.

But you are right, the info they are going to mine from this gps data is going to be the best stuff out there, possibly ever. So you all had better be tuning in.


I don’t wanna derail this thread by no means, but since you answered and mentioned the gps data…When do you think enough is enough with say the Spartan Forge AI information. Are we going to lose the woodsmanship attached to hunting, how did the OG killers get it done without this, do you consider it unfair with all the GPS data? Just playing devils advocate, no different then cell cams. I mention this because the thought hit me WHILE I was listening to the podcast and soaking it up and thinking this is a GameChanger for sure, but when is enough to much? Just a thought though, cuz I’m soaking the gps data up and learning just how little I knew about mature buck movement!


In my opinion people who have all the data and none of the woodsman-ship will still struggle to consistently kill mature deer. I listened to the podcast and it was great, but each individual buck has its own personality and each exposes itself to danger at different levels, it is not one size fits all. Last year I had 3 sits in a row with a mature buck in bow range, only killed 1. That didn’t happen because of data. It happened because it has taken me years to learn the woods and deer behavior and how to read the sign, and how the older bucks use the terrain. On one of the mornings I took a friend and he mentioned to me that he did not want to take my spot, and I told him the spot I put him was a deer spot, but the spot I was going was a big buck spot. Sure enough he saw 4 doe and 2 small bucks, and shot one of them. I saw a mature buck, they are a different Animal. But the podcast makes it seem like it’s impossible to kill mature bucks, that is flat false, guys do it every year and you have no further to look then this forum for proof of that. And many guys on this forum are darn good at it, and are in the top 1% of whitetail deer hunters.


I can agree with this for sure. Big bucks are killed every year. I do think what the data showed me OUTSIDE of the rut, is that they are masters of thermals and you won’t be in the game unless you’re pushing the envelope. I already knew this from the site but it drove it home again and it never hurts to be reminded.
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Re: I Think Its Starting to Click

Unread postby PK_ » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:55 am

BA-IV wrote:
mipubbucks24 wrote:In my opinion people who have all the data and none of the woodsman-ship will still struggle to consistently kill mature deer. I listened to the podcast and it was great, but each individual buck has its own personality and each exposes itself to danger at different levels, it is not one size fits all. Last year I had 3 sits in a row with a mature buck in bow range, only killed 1. That didn’t happen because of data. It happened because it has taken me years to learn the woods and deer behavior and how to read the sign, and how the older bucks use the terrain. On one of the mornings I took a friend and he mentioned to me that he did not want to take my spot, and I told him the spot I put him was a deer spot, but the spot I was going was a big buck spot. Sure enough he saw 4 doe and 2 small bucks, and shot one of them. I saw a mature buck, they are a different Animal. But the podcast makes it seem like it’s impossible to kill mature bucks, that is flat false, guys do it every year and you have no further to look then this forum for proof of that. And many guys on this forum are darn good at it, and are in the top 1% of whitetail deer hunters.


I can agree with this for sure. Big bucks are killed every year. I do think what the data showed me OUTSIDE of the rut, is that they are masters of thermals and you won’t be in the game unless you’re pushing the envelope. I already knew this from the site but it drove it home again and it never hurts to be reminded.

Mipubbucks is spot on. Some mature bucks are actually easy to kill once you find them, even outside of the rut. They stick to a tighter area which makes them more predictable. You just have to figure out the conditions that make him vulnerable.

What I find is the thermals are usually their weak link because they are consistent and they rely on them so heavily. Thats why I talk a lot about getting down thermal. The problem is that in most terrain, they bed where the daytime wind swirls or funnels from multiple directions, this is what usually keeps me from getting close to most mature buck beds. Sometimes you can get close for a short period of time, but setting up in a stand, that wind swirl will eventually get you. That is why I like to still hunt some bedding areas. You can slide in to the edge of where that wind is going to start getting shifty and you can try calling to get him to show himself or just slip in there and be ready for a quick shot, especially if you know where the beds are.

Quest1001 wrote:I was sitting in a funnel last fall, all the does and smaller bucks were walking through the tree line transition but I was caught off guard when a mature buck actually skirted an open field connecting two points about 30 yards east of the traditional deer travel. I didn’t expect that.


This is exactly what I was talking about. If you continue to hunt normal deer patterns you will see this happen over and over. The bucks that have been around for 3-4+ breeding seasons are on a different pattern than the rest of the deer (rut). They aren’t worried about food and they aren’t just running around looking for does like the little bucks. They have learned how to be efficient (and safe) with their movement.

Once you put together the pieces of how mature bucks use the landscape and how the wind flows thru the landscape, it all starts to make perfect sense. But I also want to say that bucks are not using thermals or wind to dictate all of their movement. Meaning it’s not that they will be traveling into, with or cross wind at any given time. It’s that they simply relate to key spots where the wind or thermals give them an advantage. I guess what I am trying to say is most bucks will not have a true wind advantage or 100% coverage 100% of the time. So it’s your task to find his blind spot or a blind spot in the terrain where a mature buck is likely to walk in daylight.

I also want to say that other guys have been talking about this kind of stuff on this forum for over a decade.
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