B&C Rules Cell Cams Not Fair Chase

[Brad]

I know of guys who have permission on small suburban private yards where they set up a stand over a feed station and monitor it with a cell cam. They wait for a target buck to show up then they go sit there and shoot it so they can post selfies on fakebook. Nothing to be proud of there imo.

If somebody else wants to do that, more power to them. As for me, I wouldn't even think about doing that because to me that's straight up garbage.

[OH nontypical]

Experimenting with my first cell cam right now.
I have one out on a public piece I usually hunt most weeks in the season.

I have been sidelined with Covid for a couple weeks and was hoping it would help me keep tabs on the bucks I know are in that area while I get better.

So far I have been disappointed. Other than the test pics it sends me twice a day I haven’t had a pic of a buck since 1-6 and the last deer pic was 1-9.

Either the area has gone cold of deer movement or the camera is missing pics. Hoping to feel better soon so I can scout the area in person and see what’s up.

Too early to tell but I have always been able to get pics of bucks and does in the same area with my non cell cams at the same time of the year.

If cell cams end up outlawed in Ohio I’ll survive.
I hope they outlaw baiting on private here soon. Already illegal on public.

[oldrank]

I wouldn't be upset if they outlawed them. I dabble with a cam behind the house here n there but almost never use them on public land. I've probably had a cam on public for a total of 10 days in 20 years. For me it just never felt right. I do enjoy others pictures though.

[SaddleMaster]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

[James]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

[Chuck B]

I know of guys who have permission on small suburban private yards where they set up a stand over a feed station and monitor it with a cell cam. They wait for a target buck to show up then they go sit there and shoot it so they can post selfies on fakebook. Nothing to be proud of there imo.

Was just talking to my brother in law about this the other day. We live in Pierce county, WI (big bucks here). He lives just outside of a town. Most guys have 5-20 acres around their house and their is AG and some nice valleys. Most of the landowners around here know exactly which bucks are around and they share trail cam pics. Anyways, long story short, this last year ALL of the bigger bucks got killed that they know of. Every guy has bait out and a man made water hole, and every guy has multiple cell cams on their land. Never has there been a year where even 50 percent of the big bucks were taken, until this year.

Everyone is using cell cams now. And they ARE effective in this sort of setting. You guys putting up cell cams in big chunk of woods; that’s a different deal obviously as the deer aren’t so predictable.

[Bentstraight]

I can see how cell cams in the wrong hands can end very badly, I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't use trail cams, but I feel bad for the people that are using them responsibly. The bad apples will ruin it for everybody. I don't really see a problem with boone and crocketts decision.... they have to draw the line somewhere. most people that I know using them are doing so to monitor their property for trespassers and I can say they are very effective for that. Getting real time images of people trespassing allows them to act quickly and catch people.

[dan]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

How about if you were in a tree stand 30 feet up ans saw a buck heading thru the woods and got down and cut it off at a funnel? is that fair chase? maybe they should ban treestands... By far treestands are the biggest advantage outside of rifles, that hunters have. I would ask this, if knowing the deer was there was so much of an advantage, why is it not dead? Not trying to pick on you, just giving my honest opinion, at least you use a cell cam, most people claiming they are so unethical dont use them, but use treestands, rifles, and scent control... I know a lot of people that use cell cams, and cant say any of them are killing tons of giant bucks caise of it... There are a lot of tools out there that give hunters a far better advantage... Knowing the deer stepped in front of your cam at a certain time is not a huge advantage... I pretty much know the areas my target bucks ate in cam or not... A camera dont make killinh a deer easier. Even guys with bait piles, they would still be hunting there and still kill the buck cell cam or not

[SaddleMaster]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

How about if you were in a tree stand 30 feet up ans saw a buck heading thru the woods and got down and cut it off at a funnel? is that fair chase? maybe they should ban treestands... By far treestands are the biggest advantage outside of rifles, that hunters have. I would ask this, if knowing the deer was there was so much of an advantage, why is it not dead? Not trying to pick on you, just giving my honest opinion, at least you use a cell cam, most people claiming they are so unethical dont use them, but use treestands, rifles, and scent control... I know a lot of people that use cell cams, and cant say any of them are killing tons of giant bucks caise of it... There are a lot of tools out there that give hunters a far better advantage... Knowing the deer stepped in front of your cam at a certain time is not a huge advantage... I pretty much know the areas my target bucks ate in cam or not... A camera dont make killinh a deer easier. Even guys with bait piles, they would still be hunting there and still kill the buck cell cam or not

Cell cams are definitely not a guaranteed kill but they do increase the possibility of changing the hunter’s actions to the point of not being fair chase. I think the concept of fair chase begins and ends before the animal is killed. It’s the “chase” that is qualified here not the kill. If any of my actions during a hunt can be altered because of real-time information that I’m receiving from an electronic, networked device on the whereabouts of the animal that I’m hunting then that is not fair chase. And those actions include everything related to the hunt: stop/slow down, rattle/don’t rattle, grab my bow and get ready, let’s head that direction, etc, etc….If any of those decisions are made based on real-time, cell cam data…not fair chase. Doesn't matter if it results in a kill or not.

The difference is where/how that initial event is triggered that ultimately makes it to your brain to interpret and react. If I’m 30 feet in a tree stand my own eyes and ears still have to trigger that event. And at my age it’s likely not to get triggered at all. Or maybe you just turn your head and miss it. Maybe you start daydreaming about dinner. There’s more left to chance. It takes effort, focus.

But a cell cam can be quite a distance away using motion sensor technology. It’s always ready, uses 5G ( or whatever ) cellular networks to get the image from the location to your phone. In other words, a lot of technology before it reaches your eyes. (And I understand that they are not 100% perfect either but…)

In the spectrum of fair chase, tree stands are closer to fair. They offer advantages for sure, but are closer. In the other thread, I put them as my #1 advantage. Cell cams are closer to the drone side of the spectrum. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Most states have outlawed drones. That line needs to be moved over a bit to include cell cams as well. At least during hunting season.

[Trout]

I used cell.cams for the first time the last couple seasons and agree with the thoughts above. That said, the places I hunt are either 1.5 or 9 hours from home. Cell cams have been so nice to have a ballpark idea on where to start when I get there vs having to go check a camera first. I haven't ran into real time pics while I'm actively hunting, but it would be hard to ignore and act on a pic coming through. Still a lot that has to go right to capitalize, but the real time info is definitely an unfair advantage.

[<DK>]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

I see it all season on FB.. "Whelp, got the text while at work! Heading to the stand now!"

Theres a few stories posted here that prove they can be extremely productive, although Dan is not the only one iv heard say they arent as helpful as they may seem.

Case in point, I think Jame's / Baron's stories could be considered exhibit A's. If a hunter is making decisions based on text messages from their trail cams and they otherwise wouldnt even have been in the woods that day, how is it "fair chase"?

[Brad]

I am not anti cell cam, or anti trail cam, but I've never used either at this point. I know it doesn't guarantee a kill, but it seems like you can get information on when a buck is using a certain area, and under what conditions, without ever having to go to that area other than to set a camera up. In that aspect I can't really agree with the use of stands being even close to comparable to using cameras. To visualize anything from a stand you have to actually get into the spot while the deer are there, set up undetected by the deer you are observing, and be able to get out with little risk of altering the deer use of the area. With cameras, you can have months or years of data without being in the woods more than once. I don't think cell cams are a huge advantage compared to regular trail cams all of the time, and if used the way the majority use them I'm sure, but if used in certain ways they definitely could be as a few on here have already discussed. Really trail cams can be a disadvantage if you rely on them instead of scouting/hunting, but if used in conjunction with the methods you would use if you didn't use cams, they seem like they could be a huge advantage, cell or not.

[minnesotahunter]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

How about if you were in a tree stand 30 feet up ans saw a buck heading thru the woods and got down and cut it off at a funnel? is that fair chase? maybe they should ban treestands... By far treestands are the biggest advantage outside of rifles, that hunters have. I would ask this, if knowing the deer was there was so much of an advantage, why is it not dead? Not trying to pick on you, just giving my honest opinion, at least you use a cell cam, most people claiming they are so unethical dont use them, but use treestands, rifles, and scent control... I know a lot of people that use cell cams, and cant say any of them are killing tons of giant bucks caise of it... There are a lot of tools out there that give hunters a far better advantage... Knowing the deer stepped in front of your cam at a certain time is not a huge advantage... I pretty much know the areas my target bucks ate in cam or not... A camera dont make killinh a deer easier. Even guys with bait piles, they would still be hunting there and still kill the buck cell cam or not

Cell cams are equivalent to livescope with fishing. They will have to adjust regs if harvest spikes because of it. I don't like either but I'm on the side that most guys that use these things to the full potential are probably already killer's anyways. In the deer world the guys that think they aren't ethical won't use them anyways. The guys that love equipment and aren't very good hunters will use them but it won't matter. The guys that have corn piles and don't have much for ethics will benefit but they will use them if they are banned anyway.

[James]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

How about if you were in a tree stand 30 feet up ans saw a buck heading thru the woods and got down and cut it off at a funnel? is that fair chase? maybe they should ban treestands... By far treestands are the biggest advantage outside of rifles, that hunters have. I would ask this, if knowing the deer was there was so much of an advantage, why is it not dead? Not trying to pick on you, just giving my honest opinion, at least you use a cell cam, most people claiming they are so unethical dont use them, but use treestands, rifles, and scent control... I know a lot of people that use cell cams, and cant say any of them are killing tons of giant bucks caise of it... There are a lot of tools out there that give hunters a far better advantage... Knowing the deer stepped in front of your cam at a certain time is not a huge advantage... I pretty much know the areas my target bucks ate in cam or not... A camera dont make killinh a deer easier. Even guys with bait piles, they would still be hunting there and still kill the buck cell cam or not

Yup fair points Dan, I agree. I posed my statement as a question because I don’t know where that line is when it comes to cell cams. There is definitely a line though. I think the guy in the video is crossing it. Getting real time intelligence on a specific buck all over his farm and making real time moves to get on the buck. Really no different than a guy in a plane circling to tell him where it’s at or using a drone to find it. Doesn’t mean he’ll necessarily kill it but it’s an advantage without using himself to get there. However, some may be ok with it. It’s certainly legal.

I had a fair number of cell cameras out on the property that I mentioned earlier this year. I ended up killing a mature buck that I hadn’t had a photo of for weeks. For me they help inform me on the inventory of mature bucks around and frequenting the area without walking all over to check cameras. Not real time intelligence.

[dan]

I think this video is a good example of what some people are concerned about. Quite a few decisions are being made based on real time data being collected while in the stand. Is this fair chase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XdHK0UB5Y

Yeah I would agree it’s not fair chase. I’ve definitely been developing my opinion on this topic the more I talk to folks. Whenever I get my rut video together for the beast this year it will cover this topic a bit. I had a morning where as I was halfway across a field I got one of my target bucks on a scrape where I was planning on walking to setup. I laid down in the field for 20 minutes until I stopped getting pics and ensured he had plenty of time to move on and then slipped into my hang and hunt. I didn’t kill him this season but had i shot him later that morning would that have been fair chase? Without the cell cam I would have surely bumped him off that scrape.

How about if you were in a tree stand 30 feet up ans saw a buck heading thru the woods and got down and cut it off at a funnel? is that fair chase? maybe they should ban treestands... By far treestands are the biggest advantage outside of rifles, that hunters have. I would ask this, if knowing the deer was there was so much of an advantage, why is it not dead? Not trying to pick on you, just giving my honest opinion, at least you use a cell cam, most people claiming they are so unethical dont use them, but use treestands, rifles, and scent control... I know a lot of people that use cell cams, and cant say any of them are killing tons of giant bucks caise of it... There are a lot of tools out there that give hunters a far better advantage... Knowing the deer stepped in front of your cam at a certain time is not a huge advantage... I pretty much know the areas my target bucks ate in cam or not... A camera dont make killinh a deer easier. Even guys with bait piles, they would still be hunting there and still kill the buck cell cam or not

Yup fair points Dan, I agree. I posed my statement as a question because I don’t know where that line is when it comes to cell cams. There is definitely a line though. I think the guy in the video is crossing it. Getting real time intelligence on a specific buck all over his farm and making real time moves to get on the buck. Really no different than a guy in a plane circling to tell him where it’s at or using a drone to find it. Doesn’t mean he’ll necessarily kill it but it’s an advantage without using himself to get there. However, some may be ok with it. It’s certainly legal.

I had a fair number of cell cameras out on the property that I mentioned earlier this year. I ended up killing a mature buck that I hadn’t had a photo of for weeks. For me they help inform me on the inventory of mature bucks around and frequenting the area without walking all over to check cameras. Not real time intelligence.

I kind of feel like the line you mention is an individual thing, and each hunter draws his own line, as long as its within the law and not jepordizing the population. When thing's cross a lot of peoples lines, thats when laws get pushed for... Also, I THINK THE LINE may change over time and marurity... Mine has, and both ways. some things I feel more against, and some more for than I once did