Baron.freeman wrote:All good. Easily my misunderstanding still trying to figure the site out. The technology whoops me. I'm enjoying everyone's opinion. Even if it don't completely line up with mine.
My fault and definitely appreciate the story
Baron.freeman wrote:All good. Easily my misunderstanding still trying to figure the site out. The technology whoops me. I'm enjoying everyone's opinion. Even if it don't completely line up with mine.
dan wrote:Bperdue21 wrote:Baron.freeman wrote: Anyway back to topic like Dan is saying why is a private club making these decisions for all of us? I feel like B$C should just follow each states laws. If it legal in the state it was killed it should be accepted in B$C? Does that make sense? I mean I'm knew to these discussions didn't know it was so widely discussed. I maybe missing something. I guess it's there club and I don't wanna be in it.
Thank u for your opinion and the discussion.
They didn’t make any state laws, Idaho just used B&C Clubs definition of fair chase to apply to the cell cam law.
Also it looks like the law was made because of the way outfitters were doing the elk out there. The whitetail hunters just got lumped in because of the few bad apples that were actually doing it. If I had paid 300k for a tag though, I’d probably want similar results.
I was hunting last week with Chad president of Exodus trail cams, and he was telling me there are some man made water holes in dry areas for the wildlife that are not getting used cause there are literally 50 trail cameras surrounding the water tank. Some poles have several different cameras from different guys / outfitters.... He said even as a camera manufacture he can understand why they outlawed them, but wished they would of did some other kind of restriction like distance from water, or? But, he said something had to be done cause it was effecting herd health.
dan wrote: I was hunting last week with Chad president of Exodus trail cams, and he was telling me there are some man made water holes in dry areas for the wildlife that are not getting used cause there are literally 50 trail cameras surrounding the water tank. Some poles have several different cameras from different guys / outfitters.... He said even as a camera manufacture he can understand why they outlawed them, but wished they would of did some other kind of restriction like distance from water, or? But, he said something had to be done cause it was effecting herd health.
Bperdue21 wrote:dan wrote: I was hunting last week with Chad president of Exodus trail cams, and he was telling me there are some man made water holes in dry areas for the wildlife that are not getting used cause there are literally 50 trail cameras surrounding the water tank. Some poles have several different cameras from different guys / outfitters.... He said even as a camera manufacture he can understand why they outlawed them, but wished they would of did some other kind of restriction like distance from water, or? But, he said something had to be done cause it was effecting herd health.
It sounds to me like they should have started cracking down on the outfitters. They probably didn’t want to cut into their revenue stream though.
Ultimately though, when I was growing up you’d hear things like 8 point, a big 8, a high rack 8. Now we hear 150 class deer or booner or however many inch class it is. When you push the score like that, it pushes people and apparently really pushes people that stake their living to push the boundaries of what is ethical or not. When you are relying on pictures of clients with dead animals 170 class or 380” elk or whatever class you call it to sell your hunts, you are definitely gonna push the envelope to keep your money coming in. And you know every one of those guys knew they were in the wrong as they placed their cameras.
Bperdue21 wrote:dan wrote: I was hunting last week with Chad president of Exodus trail cams, and he was telling me there are some man made water holes in dry areas for the wildlife that are not getting used cause there are literally 50 trail cameras surrounding the water tank. Some poles have several different cameras from different guys / outfitters.... He said even as a camera manufacture he can understand why they outlawed them, but wished they would of did some other kind of restriction like distance from water, or? But, he said something had to be done cause it was effecting herd health.
It sounds to me like they should have started cracking down on the outfitters. They probably didn’t want to cut into their revenue stream though.
Ultimately though, when I was growing up you’d hear things like 8 point, a big 8, a high rack 8. Now we hear 150 class deer or booner or however many inch class it is. When you push the score like that, it pushes people and apparently really pushes people that stake their living to push the boundaries of what is ethical or not. When you are relying on pictures of clients with dead animals 170 class or 380” elk or whatever class you call it to sell your hunts, you are definitely gonna push the envelope to keep your money coming in. And you know every one of those guys knew they were in the wrong as they placed their cameras.
dan wrote:Bperdue21 wrote:dan wrote: I was hunting last week with Chad president of Exodus trail cams, and he was telling me there are some man made water holes in dry areas for the wildlife that are not getting used cause there are literally 50 trail cameras surrounding the water tank. Some poles have several different cameras from different guys / outfitters.... He said even as a camera manufacture he can understand why they outlawed them, but wished they would of did some other kind of restriction like distance from water, or? But, he said something had to be done cause it was effecting herd health.
It sounds to me like they should have started cracking down on the outfitters. They probably didn’t want to cut into their revenue stream though.
Ultimately though, when I was growing up you’d hear things like 8 point, a big 8, a high rack 8. Now we hear 150 class deer or booner or however many inch class it is. When you push the score like that, it pushes people and apparently really pushes people that stake their living to push the boundaries of what is ethical or not. When you are relying on pictures of clients with dead animals 170 class or 380” elk or whatever class you call it to sell your hunts, you are definitely gonna push the envelope to keep your money coming in. And you know every one of those guys knew they were in the wrong as they placed their cameras.
I don't think the blame can be focused on outfitters. They are only a percentage of the cameras and honestly, a lot of the higher quality outfitters are calling for this cause they don't want the herd effected... Some of the people placing the cameras are not even hunters, just want pics of big elk. And guys there all day long checking the cameras has to have an impact. I heard Chad from Exodus did a podcast about this subject, however I did not listen yet, maybe someone can find it and post it here? UPDATE: Found it, but still can't listen, im at work (and hard at it obviously ) here it is: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IBxAF&ep=6
Baron.freeman wrote:dan wrote:<DK> wrote:Thank you Baron for giving an honest and open story about your experience. That is an amazing deer!
I am surprised by some the comments about this subject, considering how many threads there have been over the years about 'hunter ethics'. Especially on public lands.. How do those conversations go? "Alot of hunters dont have any but they should".
I do not see how glassing a buck can be equal to a cell cam. That is not the same thing at all, youre physically there and seeing the deer.
Cams on public is one discussion but I take major issue w cell cams being allowed on public lands! Deer ethics aside, it means that we are no longer alone out there. If I walk by your cell cam, now we are together in that moment. You could literally drop what youre doing and come out there too. Thats not fair, I make extensive efforts to get away from people and technology. Plus if im a non resident, I paid alot of money to do so.
How many threads have there been on here about the cell cams since they have come out? Most knew this was either walking the line or crossing it but when people see others having huge success they will follow suit.
In some ways technology has surpassed the game and there has to be a line or code. This rule must have ruffled some features bc the google search had a trending one for me to click on. Here are a few paragraphs I found online that define it well :
*Fair Chase balances the skills and equipment of the hunter with
the abilities of the animal to escape. Fair Chase is primarily
defined by individuals and their level of hunting ability. The expert hunter may use more restrictive and less effective techniques than the novice hunter. Fair Chase emphasizes self-restraint and the development of skills.
*Fair Chase relates directly to the development of skills, and then differences between what might be ethical for a novice hunter, but not for an experienced hunter doing the same activity.
*When in the field, the initial question for every fair chase hunter is whether the animal has a reasonable opportunity to elude the hunter. If the animal does not, the hunt can never be "fair chase".
*Fair chase has been the honor code of North American hunters for over a century and the principle underlying many hunting laws, and is taught to new hunters in hunter certification courses.
*There are also laws that regulate hunting. Ethical, fair chase hunting therefore begins with obeying game laws. A fair chase hunter must acquaint themselves with the laws that govern hunting, as they reflect considerations for safety, the sustainable use of the wildlife resources, and the minimum level of conduct that the public will tolerate in a particular state, province, region, or country. If something is illegal it cannot, by definition, be fair chase. On the other hand, just because something is legal does not make it fair chase.
I like the fact that there are 3rd parties to define it bc every state has different rules. We cant act like the DNRs or Conservation depts do everything right bc we all know that is not true..
There are some really great posts on here though! I think it shows that there is at least a discussion to be had about it and its worth talking about.
Good points... My only argument would be that private clubs should not be deciding ethics or laws, we the people should, and if you geel somethong should be outlawed you should petition for that... After actually using cell cams, I really dont see them as the advantage some make them out to be, certainly they are an advatage though... But, I would be ok with it becoming law if the majority felt the way you do. But, I really think in this thread, we arr talking about a private club deciding that for us, and I am not on board with that... As far as the major advantage goes, I would say most that say that habe not actually tried cell cams... I was real worried about cell cams till I actually tried them... Another thing to keep in mind is you can out law their use, and stop "law biding" people from using them, but many will use them anyway, and they will still be made and sold
I understand your point dk and can't say I completely disagree especially where you can bait and where water is lacking. I would love to spent more time in the areas I hunt and not depend on cams. Problem is the closest place I hunt is 2.5 hrs from my house, My wife works every other weekend, I work full time and we have two kids so my time is limited and I do multiple states. I only like hunting Hill country so I have to travel. Hiking and knew places is my real passion. Gotta trust me I love the process of figuring new deer and places out. I obey every rule so if they was outlawed I wouldn't use them. My cameras are set to only sent me pics once a day. (So I'm not looking at phone all day). But I wouldnt be devastated if the hunting world decided to outlaw them.
Anyway back to topic like Dan is saying why is a private club making these decisions for all of us? I feel like B$C should just follow each states laws. If it legal in the state it was killed it should be accepted in B$C? Does that make sense? I mean I'm knew to these discussions didn't know it was so widely discussed. I maybe missing something. I guess it's there club and I don't wanna be in it.
Thank u for your opinion and the discussion.
Boogieman1 wrote:While I don’t care for the “book” aspect of B&C I respect them and they do a lot for the hunting community. I don’t care for the whole “who cares if it’s legal” mess. It’s my opinion that what is legal has nothing to do with right/wrong or what’s best for the wildlife. Instead it has everything to do with how much money corporate tycoons will lobby to make something legal. Try this… go sleep with your buddies wife and if caught just say who cares it’s legal! If he gets mad he must just be jealous or have his head in the clouds.
For me cell cams cross the line. The honest truth is if the hunting community excepts instant cams, ozone machines, etc…. You can bet your bottom dollar these companies are already working on technology to push the envelope even farther. So where does it stop? Answer it never will! Your kids will enter the woods 25 years from now with not the slightest clue of what hunting is about. As a guy who would like to leave something better than I found it this saddens me. Think I’m lying…. Look backs to just 25 years ago. Now we have mutated bucks behind tall fences, ozone units, archery guns, cell cams, drones, and numerous other technical devices. I prefer to draw a line in the sand. I respect B&C because they will talk about the real problems that folks won’t for fear of losing sponsorship.
Brad wrote:Boogieman1 wrote:While I don’t care for the “book” aspect of B&C I respect them and they do a lot for the hunting community. I don’t care for the whole “who cares if it’s legal” mess. It’s my opinion that what is legal has nothing to do with right/wrong or what’s best for the wildlife. Instead it has everything to do with how much money corporate tycoons will lobby to make something legal. Try this… go sleep with your buddies wife and if caught just say who cares it’s legal! If he gets mad he must just be jealous or have his head in the clouds.
For me cell cams cross the line. The honest truth is if the hunting community excepts instant cams, ozone machines, etc…. You can bet your bottom dollar these companies are already working on technology to push the envelope even farther. So where does it stop? Answer it never will! Your kids will enter the woods 25 years from now with not the slightest clue of what hunting is about. As a guy who would like to leave something better than I found it this saddens me. Think I’m lying…. Look backs to just 25 years ago. Now we have mutated bucks behind tall fences, ozone units, archery guns, cell cams, drones, and numerous other technical devices. I prefer to draw a line in the sand. I respect B&C because they will talk about the real problems that folks won’t for fear of losing sponsorship.
I completely respect that comment.
My question then is, if cell cameras cross the line... do regular trail cameras cross the line too?
Brad wrote:I have a question for the guys who have consistently and successfully killed mature bucks.
I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, because it is NOT in any way intended to take anything away from anybody's success. I'm sure there are some who wish not to answer the question honestly, and that's ok. If you think the question is out of line, let me know, as I am always open to constructive criticism.
How many of the mature bucks or trophy bucks that you have you've killed were killed with any type of assistance of trail cameras, including even minimal use of cameras or indirect assistance killing a buck because of cameras?
I'd love to hear what you all have to say about this, and again, it is for information, not to take anything away. I have only been hunting 3 seasons, so I understand that I don't know half as much as most of you guys on here. That said, I believe I have been fairly pretty successful for being at it such a short time, and I have never once used a trail camera. I have been considering trying to use one or a few, but I am torn about it.
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