Mn wolf management plan comments

[swampyak]

Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.

Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.

That’s why I said “hypothetically” in my post ;-) I’ve heard that a wolf on average will take about 20 deer/year. If that’s true, it doesn’t take a mathematician to tell you that 2500 wolves then means 50,000 dead deer. If we’ve added 1000 wolves in the last two+ decades, that’s a lot more dead deer annually. No denying they have an impact.

Like I said, I don’t know what to believe on the overall picture. Wolves kill deer. Deer also hide from wolves in places that people don’t go (whether that be some thicket on the property, the neighbors’ piece you can’t access, some park that doesn’t allow hunting, or who knows where), so the local population might look different than it is. A hunting camp might complain that they barely see any deer during gun season anymore, but they say they’re seeing plenty of wolves. Well, if a wolf kills 20 deer per year and there are wolves in your area, that suggests there are deer too but the camp just isn’t seeing them because they’ve moved elsewhere.

Like I said, I don’t know what the full story is, and I don’t think any biologist, hunter, wolf-lover, or anyone else does either. I feel like I’m coming off in saying that I doubt the wolves have an impact, and I want to be clear that I’m definitely not saying that. Wolves do have absolutely have an impact, but I think there’s a lot to the story and the overall picture.

I’ve been trying to figure out were they moved to. I’ve been told told that one before.
Since we have snow on the ground 6 months a year and there are very few places near or far thick or thin that I don’t cover in some of the big woods of Minnesota in not sure what to say.
I’ve put a large number of hours into pondering that very question

Not trying to be smart with anyone just stating with snow it’s hard to hide

No doubting that it's hard to hide with snow. Hopefully enough people like you and me put in comments to convince the DNR to push for a season should the Great Lakes wolves finally be federally delisted again. They definitely need to be managed like any other species. I was fortunate to draw a tag in 2014 the last year that Minnesota had a season. Didn't kill a wolf but got close and had a great few days. And then in 2017 my dad and I hunted them in Idaho for what turned out to be a super rainy week. Unsuccessful that time too, so I'm itching to get a chance to try again. They're fun to chase and their numbers should be reduced. No legitimate reason to not have a season as far as I can see, so here's to hoping.

Unfortunately not sure how much pull Minnesota has with the feds.
Also until we get a new lieutenant governor not sure much will change

[Pancake]

Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.

Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.

That’s why I said “hypothetically” in my post ;-) I’ve heard that a wolf on average will take about 20 deer/year. If that’s true, it doesn’t take a mathematician to tell you that 2500 wolves then means 50,000 dead deer. If we’ve added 1000 wolves in the last two+ decades, that’s a lot more dead deer annually. No denying they have an impact.

Like I said, I don’t know what to believe on the overall picture. Wolves kill deer. Deer also hide from wolves in places that people don’t go (whether that be some thicket on the property, the neighbors’ piece you can’t access, some park that doesn’t allow hunting, or who knows where), so the local population might look different than it is. A hunting camp might complain that they barely see any deer during gun season anymore, but they say they’re seeing plenty of wolves. Well, if a wolf kills 20 deer per year and there are wolves in your area, that suggests there are deer too but the camp just isn’t seeing them because they’ve moved elsewhere.

Like I said, I don’t know what the full story is, and I don’t think any biologist, hunter, wolf-lover, or anyone else does either. I feel like I’m coming off in saying that I doubt the wolves have an impact, and I want to be clear that I’m definitely not saying that. Wolves do have absolutely have an impact, but I think there’s a lot to the story and the overall picture.

I’ve been trying to figure out were they moved to. I’ve been told told that one before.
Since we have snow on the ground 6 months a year and there are very few places near or far thick or thin that I don’t cover in some of the big woods of Minnesota in not sure what to say.
I’ve put a large number of hours into pondering that very question

Not trying to be smart with anyone just stating with snow it’s hard to hide

No doubting that it's hard to hide with snow. Hopefully enough people like you and me put in comments to convince the DNR to push for a season should the Great Lakes wolves finally be federally delisted again. They definitely need to be managed like any other species. I was fortunate to draw a tag in 2014 the last year that Minnesota had a season. Didn't kill a wolf but got close and had a great few days. And then in 2017 my dad and I hunted them in Idaho for what turned out to be a super rainy week. Unsuccessful that time too, so I'm itching to get a chance to try again. They're fun to chase and their numbers should be reduced. No legitimate reason to not have a season as far as I can see, so here's to hoping.

Unfortunately not sure how much pull Minnesota has with the feds.
Also until we get a new lieutenant governor not sure much will change

Zero pull at all. The problem is that every time we get wolves delisted, the antis sue and then somehow the appeal trial is held in a circuit that's overseen by a judge that has no clue that the science supports that there's no reason for Great Lakes wolves to have ESA protection. Then before you know it, this random judge puts wolves back on the list. USFWS and the big conversation orgs like BHA, RMEF, Sportsmen's Alliance, etc. need to band together on that; otherwise, nothing good will ever happen.

But yeah, you make a good point about MN leadership. I don't think Walz is too keen on having a wolf season either even if we finally get past the federal barrier. It's an uphill battle for sure.