Mn wolf management plan comments

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swampyak
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Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby swampyak » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:23 am

Please make comments on the mn wolf management plan before 430 central time today

It has an interesting spot in it we’re it says wolves don’t reduce deer numbers
Only winters, hunters and habitat
Thanks


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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby swampyak » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:26 am

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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Pancake » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:51 am

Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby swampyak » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:05 pm

Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Well I work in the woods up north most every day.
The hunter registration wouldn’t say it’s hunters killing the deer. The habitat is better than it been in a long time. Some winters are bad some not. Deer numbers are the lowest in recorded history or at least since my family moved here in the early 1900s
Not saying it’s wolves, but hunters aren’t killing them and the habitat is good
I don’t have the answer and I’m sure it’s a lot of factors but……..
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Lockdown » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:26 pm

Wish I would have seen this sooner.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby 218er » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:58 pm

They’re full of it if they claim wolves don’t have an impact on the deer population. Not all deer killed by wolves we’re going to die without creating more deer. It’s that simple.
Persistence is undefeated.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Pancake » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:40 am

swampyak wrote:
Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Well I work in the woods up north most every day.
The hunter registration wouldn’t say it’s hunters killing the deer. The habitat is better than it been in a long time. Some winters are bad some not. Deer numbers are the lowest in recorded history or at least since my family moved here in the early 1900s
Not saying it’s wolves, but hunters aren’t killing them and the habitat is good
I don’t have the answer and I’m sure it’s a lot of factors but……..
'

I hear ya! I'm sure the DNR would say something like the deer numbers have equalized after some peak or that wolves have dispersed deer into more secluded areas that people don't go, or who knows what. I want to believe the DNR and the supposed science, but I also have my doubts. I don't know. What I do know is that I like wolves, but I also think they should be managed like any other large species and there's too many of them running around our state right now. Hopefully someday the Great Lakes population gets delisted and we can get a season again.

I'll also say for as much flack as the DNR gets, I appreciated that they've pushed their plan to the public fairly well. I've gotten a fair number of emails from them about it, and it's been all over their Facebook page for the past while. It really did seem like they were trying to get people to comment, so that's at least something.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby szwampdonkey » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:17 am

Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Spruce Cat » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:47 am

Re: Mn wolf plan
by Spruce Cat » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:34 pm
Living in Northern Wisconsin I definitely will tell you the deer herd has been down since the introduction of wolves. Hunting out of a portable camp for 45 years the deer numbers have crashed since around 2004. I believe in 1993 we had the worst winter kill on record and a few years later the deer heard rebounded with excess doe tags. Now days along with our camp after 70 years total are closing up because the deer numbers are not there along with a lot more camps.Our buck kill in Forest county is around 250% decrease from mid 90 s the wolves are out of control!
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Pancake » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:59 am

szwampdonkey wrote:
Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.


That’s why I said “hypothetically” in my post ;-) I’ve heard that a wolf on average will take about 20 deer/year. If that’s true, it doesn’t take a mathematician to tell you that 2500 wolves then means 50,000 dead deer. If we’ve added 1000 wolves in the last two+ decades, that’s a lot more dead deer annually. No denying they have an impact.

Like I said, I don’t know what to believe on the overall picture. Wolves kill deer. Deer also hide from wolves in places that people don’t go (whether that be some thicket on the property, the neighbors’ piece you can’t access, some park that doesn’t allow hunting, or who knows where), so the local population might look different than it is. A hunting camp might complain that they barely see any deer during gun season anymore, but they say they’re seeing plenty of wolves. Well, if a wolf kills 20 deer per year and there are wolves in your area, that suggests there are deer too but the camp just isn’t seeing them because they’ve moved elsewhere.

Like I said, I don’t know what the full story is, and I don’t think any biologist, hunter, wolf-lover, or anyone else does either. I feel like I’m coming off in saying that I doubt the wolves have an impact, and I want to be clear that I’m definitely not saying that. Wolves do have absolutely have an impact, but I think there’s a lot to the story and the overall picture.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Simplyclayton » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:11 pm

Hey Guys,
I just want to put my two cents in on this. I am headed back to the Farm this weekend so I will be able to have access to my research I would like to share with you. If we go back to historic levels and range of wolves, nobody is taking into account the historical range of all the other prey species we had in the lower 48 in the early 1900’s. I am not sure how anyone can justify a population that was supported by Elk, Moose, mule deer, buffalo and yes even caribou at any level without including all the data. I plan on scanning some books that I have from my grandfathers collection that includes ranges of all kinds of wildlife where wolf populations are trying to be reintroduced. I believer that the numbers need to be adjusted or there need to be an active repopulation of Moose Elk Caribou and Buffalo on the Minnesota plains to combat over predation of the last species we have to hunt on a regular basis. Now I know that crop damages will rise due to the reintroduction of all the herbivores but I plan on that to prove the point that reintroduction of the wolves is an unfair imbalance placed on the tax payer. I hope to get back to you soon with the data I have.

TTYL
Clayton

EDIT: I was looking for some information online which is very hard to find in this day and age. But here is an article about the woodland caribou.

https://niche-canada.org/2021/04/01/woo ... d-borders/

Shucks i might edit this a few times tonight classes don’t start till the 22nd
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby szwampdonkey » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:06 am

Simplyclayton wrote:Hey Guys,
I just want to put my two cents in on this. I am headed back to the Farm this weekend so I will be able to have access to my research I would like to share with you. If we go back to historic levels and range of wolves, nobody is taking into account the historical range of all the other prey species we had in the lower 48 in the early 1900’s. I am not sure how anyone can justify a population that was supported by Elk, Moose, mule deer, buffalo and yes even caribou at any level without including all the data. I plan on scanning some books that I have from my grandfathers collection that includes ranges of all kinds of wildlife where wolf populations are trying to be reintroduced. I believer that the numbers need to be adjusted or there need to be an active repopulation of Moose Elk Caribou and Buffalo on the Minnesota plains to combat over predation of the last species we have to hunt on a regular basis. Now I know that crop damages will rise due to the reintroduction of all the herbivores but I plan on that to prove the point that reintroduction of the wolves is an unfair imbalance placed on the tax payer. I hope to get back to you soon with the data I have.

TTYL
Clayton

EDIT: I was looking for some information online which is very hard to find in this day and age. But here is an article about the woodland caribou.

https://niche-canada.org/2021/04/01/woo ... d-borders/

Shucks i might edit this a few times tonight classes don’t start till the 22nd


Great point on the other historic prey animals. WI for example reintroduced Wolves (which are now overpopulated in the north) but currently has an estimated 40 moose, around 260 elk, zero mule deer, buffalo have been gone since the 1830s, etc. That leaves ONLY Whitetails so to reintroduce wolves but nothing else obviously puts quite the burden on the only remaining large prey species in the area.

Most of the Pro Wolf arguments are based on emotion and not actual science anyways. That Libby in Madison with the "Save the Wolves" and "Vote Biden" stickers plastered all over his subaru has no idea how the natural world works.
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby swampyak » Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:58 am

Simplyclayton wrote:Hey Guys,
I just want to put my two cents in on this. I am headed back to the Farm this weekend so I will be able to have access to my research I would like to share with you. If we go back to historic levels and range of wolves, nobody is taking into account the historical range of all the other prey species we had in the lower 48 in the early 1900’s. I am not sure how anyone can justify a population that was supported by Elk, Moose, mule deer, buffalo and yes even caribou at any level without including all the data. I plan on scanning some books that I have from my grandfathers collection that includes ranges of all kinds of wildlife where wolf populations are trying to be reintroduced. I believer that the numbers need to be adjusted or there need to be an active repopulation of Moose Elk Caribou and Buffalo on the Minnesota plains to combat over predation of the last species we have to hunt on a regular basis. Now I know that crop damages will rise due to the reintroduction of all the herbivores but I plan on that to prove the point that reintroduction of the wolves is an unfair imbalance placed on the tax payer. I hope to get back to you soon with the data I have.

TTYL
Clayton

EDIT: I was looking for some information online which is very hard to find in this day and age. But here is an article about the woodland caribou.

https://niche-canada.org/2021/04/01/woo ... d-borders/

Shucks i might edit this a few times tonight classes don’t start till the 22nd


Just to be clear
We are talking about Minnesota. We never reintroduced wolves
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby swampyak » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:03 am

Pancake wrote:
szwampdonkey wrote:
Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.


That’s why I said “hypothetically” in my post ;-) I’ve heard that a wolf on average will take about 20 deer/year. If that’s true, it doesn’t take a mathematician to tell you that 2500 wolves then means 50,000 dead deer. If we’ve added 1000 wolves in the last two+ decades, that’s a lot more dead deer annually. No denying they have an impact.

Like I said, I don’t know what to believe on the overall picture. Wolves kill deer. Deer also hide from wolves in places that people don’t go (whether that be some thicket on the property, the neighbors’ piece you can’t access, some park that doesn’t allow hunting, or who knows where), so the local population might look different than it is. A hunting camp might complain that they barely see any deer during gun season anymore, but they say they’re seeing plenty of wolves. Well, if a wolf kills 20 deer per year and there are wolves in your area, that suggests there are deer too but the camp just isn’t seeing them because they’ve moved elsewhere.

Like I said, I don’t know what the full story is, and I don’t think any biologist, hunter, wolf-lover, or anyone else does either. I feel like I’m coming off in saying that I doubt the wolves have an impact, and I want to be clear that I’m definitely not saying that. Wolves do have absolutely have an impact, but I think there’s a lot to the story and the overall picture.


I’ve been trying to figure out were they moved to. I’ve been told told that one before.
Since we have snow on the ground 6 months a year and there are very few places near or far thick or thin that I don’t cover in some of the big woods of Minnesota in not sure what to say.
I’ve put a large number of hours into pondering that very question

Not trying to be smart with anyone just stating with snow it’s hard to hide
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Re: Mn wolf management plan comments

Unread postby Pancake » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:56 pm

swampyak wrote:
Pancake wrote:
szwampdonkey wrote:
Pancake wrote:Great topic. I submitted my comments a couple weeks ago, and I found their plan really interesting. I have something of a hard time believing that wolves don't have an impact on deer numbers, but I'm certainly not a biologist. I imagine it's all compensatory mortality. Say there's 100 deer on the landscape. Hypothetically, 50 of them will die. 20 years ago I bet 40 of those were killed by hunters and 10 by wolves. Maybe now it's the inverse, but it's still 50 total dead deer. All completely made up numbers, but I assume the general idea is sound. Hunters see fewer deer, so they think wolves are killing them all. And while that's not exactly what's happening, it's probably what it seems like for a lot of hunters up north.

But I would definitely agree that harsh winters and habitat trump everything.


Your thinking is a bit flawed on this topic.

The numbers are more like:

20 years ago 50 deer die with hunters killing 40 and wolves 10


Today hunters kill 30 and wolves kill 60, so now 90 deer die/year. This has lowered the overall number of deer. And yes, it’s the wolves that have done it as they obviously aren’t bound by hunting seasons or bag limits as us hunters are.

Fast forward another 20 years and the deer herd is decimated to the point there aren’t many left so now 30 deer die a year with 20 killed by wolves and 10 by hunters.

That is closer to what’s happening all across the midwest, not just MN.


That’s why I said “hypothetically” in my post ;-) I’ve heard that a wolf on average will take about 20 deer/year. If that’s true, it doesn’t take a mathematician to tell you that 2500 wolves then means 50,000 dead deer. If we’ve added 1000 wolves in the last two+ decades, that’s a lot more dead deer annually. No denying they have an impact.

Like I said, I don’t know what to believe on the overall picture. Wolves kill deer. Deer also hide from wolves in places that people don’t go (whether that be some thicket on the property, the neighbors’ piece you can’t access, some park that doesn’t allow hunting, or who knows where), so the local population might look different than it is. A hunting camp might complain that they barely see any deer during gun season anymore, but they say they’re seeing plenty of wolves. Well, if a wolf kills 20 deer per year and there are wolves in your area, that suggests there are deer too but the camp just isn’t seeing them because they’ve moved elsewhere.

Like I said, I don’t know what the full story is, and I don’t think any biologist, hunter, wolf-lover, or anyone else does either. I feel like I’m coming off in saying that I doubt the wolves have an impact, and I want to be clear that I’m definitely not saying that. Wolves do have absolutely have an impact, but I think there’s a lot to the story and the overall picture.


I’ve been trying to figure out were they moved to. I’ve been told told that one before.
Since we have snow on the ground 6 months a year and there are very few places near or far thick or thin that I don’t cover in some of the big woods of Minnesota in not sure what to say.
I’ve put a large number of hours into pondering that very question

Not trying to be smart with anyone just stating with snow it’s hard to hide


No doubting that it's hard to hide with snow. Hopefully enough people like you and me put in comments to convince the DNR to push for a season should the Great Lakes wolves finally be federally delisted again. They definitely need to be managed like any other species. I was fortunate to draw a tag in 2014 the last year that Minnesota had a season. Didn't kill a wolf but got close and had a great few days. And then in 2017 my dad and I hunted them in Idaho for what turned out to be a super rainy week. Unsuccessful that time too, so I'm itching to get a chance to try again. They're fun to chase and their numbers should be reduced. No legitimate reason to not have a season as far as I can see, so here's to hoping.


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