The "J hook"

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Brad
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The "J hook"

Unread postby Brad » Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:55 am

So, I saw someone had posted this old video by Bill Vale on the hunting beast forum members facebook page. I find the forum member facebook page to be nearly useless, since 99% of the people on it are absolute morons who don't know anything about the hunting beast or the forum... but watched this video link and it showed the J hook just a little bit differently than I had previously pictured it, and honestly it made alot of sense hwy this might be how the J hook works in many situations. I had previously pictured a buck going down wind of a bed or whatever they are approaching, then approaching toward their destination with the wind straight at their nose. This video implies something slightly different, in that a buck will take a path where they are almost circling the spot they want to check with more of a cross wind to smell all different potential wind shifts and maybe more surrounding area before then approaching the spot they just checked, without necessarily having the wind to their nose as the actually approach the destination. How many of you have actually seen a buck J hook? or have hunted a spot to intercept a buck as he J hooks? What have you seen happen in regards to this pattern? does it vary depending upon the terrain (which would be my hypothesis)? What do you who have real experience with this think happens?

here's the link to the video I am referring to:

https://youtu.be/9ds_OpBErTo


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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby brancher147 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:12 am

I didn’t watch the video but I was thinking about this recently. I haven’t ever seen a buck j hook. I have seen them come in on a crosswind and walk directly to the bed. The buck I killed last October came in upwind of the bed on a crosswind. I’m not sure if it’s more a matter of how and where I setup-most being very steep with cliffs and boulders. Or if it’s more that beast tactics and the jhook is seen more on high pressure deer- because most places I hunt are little to no pressure until gun season.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Brad » Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 am

brancher147 wrote:I didn’t watch the video but I was thinking about this recently. I haven’t ever seen a buck j hook. I have seen them come in on a crosswind and walk directly to the bed. The buck I killed last October came in upwind of the bed on a crosswind. I’m not sure if it’s more a matter of how and where I setup-most being very steep with cliffs and boulders. Or if it’s more that beast tactics and the jhook is seen more on high pressure deer- because most places I hunt are little to no pressure until gun season.


I would instead wonder if that buck walked with the cross wind blowing to him from the bedding area before then hooking around and going to the bed in the direction you saw him. Check out the video, and it could explain why he would come in on a cross wind to his bed. It's not very long, but I found it interesting that it explained the J hook a little differently than I had pictured it or heard it described before. I don't really know, but I would think the spot they plan to bed and the time they approach the bed would probably change more due to the hunting pressure than the directions they would enter the beds, but I could be wrong.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby magicman54494 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:24 am

I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Stingray713 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 am

magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That’s what I’d go with.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby MichiganMike » Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:15 am

magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.

Ill buy that for bedding. Most bedding areas in the terrain I hunt are a swirling wind tunnel mess that a well conditioned/mature buck picks. No need to J hook other than to throw off predators. I think in scrape areas and food areas though- which are typically high ground areas-they have a different reason and that their checking for does mainly while also being wary of human intrusion.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby backstraps » Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:25 am

I know of a bedding area on the tip of a long narrow point
This point has several beds. Below the point is somewhat of a steep incline surrounding the entire point. The beds have j hook trails that are faint but still very visible, circling below and then up to the beds

I was witness bucks circling below nosing the air from the falling thermals at daybreak headed to be
Watched two the very same morning(out of bow range) and circle up to bedding
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Brad » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 am

magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That makes sense too. I know most of the information I've heard regarding the J hook has been anecdotal, so there is definitely not a set in stone "this is what bucks do". But I do know there have been a bunch of trail camera "studues" that have shown how mature bucks most often scent check scrapes from a distance. Have you ever noticed anything like this? Of course this could be harder to find considering there may be tracks left that never come to a scrape that you may find in the snow, but they are back 70, 80, or 150 yards (or whatever) from where the actual scrape is located. These are amazing creatures. I can't imagine we'll ever know even half of what there is to know about their behavior, but it is certainly fascinating trying to figure out why they may be doing what they do.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Brad » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:45 am

Brad wrote:
magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That makes sense too. I know most of the information I've heard regarding the J hook has been anecdotal, so there is definitely not a set in stone "this is what bucks do". But I do know there have been a bunch of trail camera "studies" that have shown how mature bucks most often scent check scrapes from a distance without ever (or at least rarely) coming to the scrape. Have you ever noticed anything like this? Of course this could be harder to find considering there may be tracks left that never come to a scrape that you may find in the snow, but they are back 70, 80, or 150 yards (or whatever) from where the actual scrape is located. These are amazing creatures. I can't imagine we'll ever know even half of what there is to know about their behavior, but it is certainly fascinating trying to figure out why they may be doing what they do.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby magicman54494 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:38 am

Brad wrote:
magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That makes sense too. I know most of the information I've heard regarding the J hook has been anecdotal, so there is definitely not a set in stone "this is what bucks do". But I do know there have been a bunch of trail camera "studues" that have shown how mature bucks most often scent check scrapes from a distance. Have you ever noticed anything like this? Of course this could be harder to find considering there may be tracks left that never come to a scrape that you may find in the snow, but they are back 70, 80, or 150 yards (or whatever) from where the actual scrape is located. These are amazing creatures. I can't imagine we'll ever know even half of what there is to know about their behavior, but it is certainly fascinating trying to figure out why they may be doing what they do.

I really don't see that with scrapes but then again I probably wouldn't even know there was a scrape there if they did. But..... bait piles are basically scrapes. I do know that bucks go from bait to bait to bait all night long looking for a hot doe. They rarely go up to the bait. Instead they swing through and scent check and move on. They also HAVE to go up to every doe bed and sniff them .
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Brad » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:36 pm

magicman54494 wrote:
Brad wrote:
magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That makes sense too. I know most of the information I've heard regarding the J hook has been anecdotal, so there is definitely not a set in stone "this is what bucks do". But I do know there have been a bunch of trail camera "studues" that have shown how mature bucks most often scent check scrapes from a distance. Have you ever noticed anything like this? Of course this could be harder to find considering there may be tracks left that never come to a scrape that you may find in the snow, but they are back 70, 80, or 150 yards (or whatever) from where the actual scrape is located. These are amazing creatures. I can't imagine we'll ever know even half of what there is to know about their behavior, but it is certainly fascinating trying to figure out why they may be doing what they do.

I really don't see that with scrapes but then again I probably wouldn't even know there was a scrape there if they did. But..... bait piles are basically scrapes. I do know that bucks go from bait to bait to bait all night long looking for a hot doe. They rarely go up to the bait. Instead they swing through and scent check and move on. They also HAVE to go up to every doe bed and sniff them .


That's pretty interesting as well. Tracking them I guess tells you everything you really need to know, because you know that's where they are going. It doesn't tell you why, because you never really know why they are in that spot. Is it that they are scent checking a scrape or a bed, or whatever they like to scent check? It would take an insane amount of thorough scouting to even figure some of that out. The doe bedding is interesting too, I was just listening to a podcast the other day where the trail cameras showed that the bucks go right into the doe bedding to sniff the actual beds... I guess when it comes to finding the does, they want to be smelling each individual does scent more specifically than they do when scent checking anything else. Pretty amazing really.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby magicman54494 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:30 am

Brad wrote:
magicman54494 wrote:
Brad wrote:
magicman54494 wrote:I snow track bucks during the rut and post rut. Ive seen maybe a 1000 beds made by mature bucks. I havent noticed a pattern concerning wind direction and approach. I think that the real reason a buck j hooks is to lead a scent trail past himself so he can visually watch for a predator and let it walk past him while he gets up and escapes. nothing that I have witnessed makes me believe that he is scent checking the bedding spot. they almost always sit so they can watch their backtrack.


That makes sense too. I know most of the information I've heard regarding the J hook has been anecdotal, so there is definitely not a set in stone "this is what bucks do". But I do know there have been a bunch of trail camera "studues" that have shown how mature bucks most often scent check scrapes from a distance. Have you ever noticed anything like this? Of course this could be harder to find considering there may be tracks left that never come to a scrape that you may find in the snow, but they are back 70, 80, or 150 yards (or whatever) from where the actual scrape is located. These are amazing creatures. I can't imagine we'll ever know even half of what there is to know about their behavior, but it is certainly fascinating trying to figure out why they may be doing what they do.

I really don't see that with scrapes but then again I probably wouldn't even know there was a scrape there if they did. But..... bait piles are basically scrapes. I do know that bucks go from bait to bait to bait all night long looking for a hot doe. They rarely go up to the bait. Instead they swing through and scent check and move on. They also HAVE to go up to every doe bed and sniff them .


That's pretty interesting as well. Tracking them I guess tells you everything you really need to know, because you know that's where they are going. It doesn't tell you why, because you never really know why they are in that spot. Is it that they are scent checking a scrape or a bed, or whatever they like to scent check? It would take an insane amount of thorough scouting to even figure some of that out. The doe bedding is interesting too, I was just listening to a podcast the other day where the trail cameras showed that the bucks go right into the doe bedding to sniff the actual beds... I guess when it comes to finding the does, they want to be smelling each individual does scent more specifically than they do when scent checking anything else. Pretty amazing really.

Here is something else to ponder. I can't prove it but I believe that not only can a buck scent check a doe to see of she is in heat but he can also tell if she has been bred. I assume that is why they check those beds. In the big woods they put on a lot of miles looking for a doe. If she is already bred then he can cross her off the list. I know that this is a lot of speculation and there is no proof. I did ask a biologist if a buck can tell if a doe has been bred and he responded" thats a good question, I don't know.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:13 am

I killed a mature buck a few years back as he was going to hook into his bed he walked downwind of the bed to check..

Even if a buck were to come in on a cross wind and hook to the bottom downwind after that the one consistency is the buck will circle downwind at some point. Even if he is correct about crosswind my morning setups wouldn't change.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby dan » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:36 pm

I have seen some validity to what Magic man is posting. on more than a few occasions I have seen wounded or pushed deer circle back and watch their back trail in a way that leads a predator right past his view and gives him good escape. Often that with the wind blowing to the bedded buck, not with the wind from the bed to his trail... I have also though watched many unpressured big bucks circle the bedding area and come in directly wind to nose and then turn around and watch there back trail. As far as scrapes go, Im not sure where the whole winding them from down wind thing started, but Ive never really observed that.
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Re: The "J hook"

Unread postby magicman54494 » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:08 am

dan wrote:I have seen some validity to what Magic man is posting. on more than a few occasions I have seen wounded or pushed deer circle back and watch their back trail in a way that leads a predator right past his view and gives him good escape. Often that with the wind blowing to the bedded buck, not with the wind from the bed to his trail... I have also though watched many unpressured big bucks circle the bedding area and come in directly wind to nose and then turn around and watch there back trail. As far as scrapes go, Im not sure where the whole winding them from down wind thing started, but Ive never really observed that.

Another thing to keep in mind is the difference between rut bedding and bedding outside the rut. I know the beds you hunt are beds that are established and used many times. A lot of the beds I find from bucks during the rut are clearly beds that they just got tired so they took a rest. A tired rutting buck may approach bedding way different than one that is on a bed and feed pattern.


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